Are you interested in reading this TL?

  • Yes, hurry up with the next update!

    Votes: 107 75.9%
  • I'm willing to give it a chance.

    Votes: 30 21.3%
  • Not today, thank you.

    Votes: 4 2.8%

  • Total voters
    141
Ok, I understand now. I must confess my knowledge of Istrian medieval history is poor and I had to look it up. Tried to find a map of the Duchy of Merania on the internet but came up with nothing. The Croatian Wikipedia entry mentions that it's geographic position is on the other (western) side of the Kvarner bay from Rijeka to Plomin. This still fits the presumption that the area is in Dalmatia/Croatia since it was part of Roman Dalmatia and since the terms Dalmatia and Croatia are sometimes (wrongly) used interchangeably. I drew a map and colored what presumably Merania is green. I hope I'm not wrong.

Thanks for that map. I also think that Merania did control that territory (as least at some point), but by 1202 my understanding was that Aquileia and Gorizia had effectively parcelled up Istria between themselves, according to this map. However, that is dated circa-1250 so Merania may have controlled the area you specified at that time. Wikipedia does also mention that, 'In 1248, the duchy fell vacant with the extinction of the Andechs-Meranier and was broken up, mostly going to Istria' (presumably the March, under Aquileian control I believe), which may indicate that the partition between the Istrian territories of the Patria del Friuli and County of Gorizia came a few decades after.

On further reading I think my borders are also slightly wrong, but in a different way. According to English-language Wikipedia; 'According to the historians Miho Barada and Lujo Margetić, it was the accession of the young King Stephen II of Hungary in 1116 that provided an opportunity for the Emperor Henry V to annex the entire eastern coast of Istria and the coast opposite as far as the river Rječina, including the city of Fiume. This territory, conquered for the emperor by the lords of Duino (Devin), became known as Merania.' (citation is 'Kraljic, John (1989). "The Early History of Vinodol and the Lords of Krk: Recent Works of Nada Klaić and Lujo Margetić". Journal of Croatian Studies. 30: 153–65.')

So if that is accurate I need to draw that border further to the north, just south of Fiume/Rijeka itself.

What do you (and anyone else interested in contributing to this element of the discussion) think should be done here? Perhaps give Merania eastern Istria and the Rijeka area?

Also, just for the record, I hate myself for relying on Wikipedia :eek:

Anyway your extraordinary effort in this formatting matter is greatly appreciated by me!

Yes, the salmon works very well for me! TBH, I myself might prefer red, since the footnote numbers are indeed a bit hard to read without some squinting!

Thank you, that's very kind. I think I'll do a poll at a later date on this issue and see what people prefer. Hope you enjoy the TL :)

As my family comes from the Dalmatian region i can already tell this is going to be a great timeline.

Hope I can live up to your expectations! If you have some local knowledge which would be useful please don't hesitate to share it.
 
Chapter 3 - Decisions
Warning: There are lots of footnotes in this update!
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The interior of the Venetian Palazzo Ducale.
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Decisions
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The Istrian War[1] of the early 1200s was precipitated by ‘Dandolo's Great Matter'. This was the contemporary term used to describe the debate within the Great Council of Venice[2] concerning the fate of the Grand Fleet. Scholars of the period, including Gregorio Batano of Zara[3], record that the Palazzo Ducale[4] and the Council Chamber were occupied in session for many days, which gives some indication of the importance of the issue to the Venetian government.

The proposal to attack Zara was abandoned. Without the Crusader army to provide manpower, a successful siege and conquest of the city was doubtful. But Dandalo could not risk dismissing the fleet – the time, effort and coin invested in the venture demanded some reward to make it worthwhile. The halt in commerce during 1201-02 had left Venice financially weaker – the spoil from the Crusade had been expected to refill the coffers, but that was no longer an option. The Doge was also unwilling to face the loss of prestige which an abandonment of the fleet would entail, and the vast number of sailors trained to man the fleet could not be easily stood down, as they numbered close to 20’000.

After much deliberation, the decision was made to launch an attack upon the city communes of Istria. Before the dissolution of the Crusade, Dandalo had proposed that Venice seize the western coast of the Istrian peninsular alone, before joining with the Crusaders to advance on Zara[5]. The cities in question included the notable municipalities of Trieste and Pola.

Historians have found the situation in Istria at the time difficult to ascertain. It is known that Venice had ruled parts of the peninsular for many years, but had lost this influence by 1202. The secular realm of the Patriarch of Aquileia, known as the Patria del Friuli, also commanded some power over the peninsular, holding nominal lordship over the March of Carniola (gifted to the Patriarch in 1071 by Emperor Henry IV[6]) and County of Gorizia[7]. The Duchy of Merania was also a significant player at this time - although it's exact borders are disputed, it seems that it held the littoral of the Gulf of Carnaro[8], occupying both the March of Istria[9] along the eastern coast of the peninsular, and the coast opposite down to the river Eneo[10] and the city of Fiume[11]. It also held fiefs in the March of Carniola, given to them by the Aquileian Patriarch.

The eventual decision of the Great Council and the Doge was to implement the elements of the initial plan involving Istria. It was thought that funds could be raised by tolls at the port of Trieste, as a means of offsetting the financial loss of the Crusade's collapse. The strategic city of Pola would also provide the Republic with a launching point for any future raids against the Dalmatian islands or even Fiume itself.

On the 1st of October 1202, the Grand Fleet sailed from Venice and set a course for Istria.
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Extract from: The History of the Republic of Venice
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Footnotes:

Firstly I should mention that the confusion regarding the status of Istria at the time is very historical. The above description is the most accurate I could establish, with help from @MakiRoc 's input and further research. These will be implemented in the next map, unless I have made an error - in which case, please inform me now!

[1]
This is the name given by historians to this war ITTL.

[2] Also called the 'Major Council' and the Consilium Sapientium (Latin: 'Council of Wise Men').

[3] A fictional character of little relevance but who may be cited by me for a Zaratin viewpoint on the events of TTL.

[4] The Doge of Venice's palace.

[5] This is OTL - Venice set out on the 1st of October (as ITTL) to impose suzerainty over Trieste, Muggia and Pola. The Crusaders left Venice on the 8th of October - they rendezvoused at Pola and then set out for Zara.

[6] 'Henry IV gave it to the Patriach of Aquileia (1071) and it formed part of the Patriarchal State of Friuli.' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carniola#March_of_Carniola). It is known that the Patriarchs appointed secular rulers to administer the fief, including the Counts of Andechs (who later became Dukes of Merania) and the Counts of Gorizia. The March of Istria later fell under Carniolan (and, thus, Aquileian) control, but it seems that that territory was annexed to Merania.

[7] 'As a vogt official of the Patriachs of Aquileia, he was enfeoffed with large estates in the former March of Friuli, including the town of Gorizia, and from 1127 on called himself a Graf von Görz.' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Gorizia#History). However, it seems that the Counts of Gorizia resented Aquileian suzerainty and fought frequent wars against their 'overlords' with exchanges of territory occurring.

[8] 'Carnaro' is the Italian name for the Kvarner Gulf, the area of sea between the Istrian peninsular and the Rijeka region. As the Dalmatians were a Latinate people (though by 1202 with strong Croatian influences), it seems reasonable to use that terminology.

[9] This is not synonymous with the Istrian peninsular, but was rather one fief within it. At one time the March probably had included the whole region, but by 1202 it had been divided between Gorizia, Merania, Venice, the Istrian city communes and Aquileia.

[10] 'Eneo' is the Italian name for the River Rječina. The same explanation applies here as it does for point [8].

[11] 'Fiume' is Rijeka. In Dalmatian the name of the city was probably Floim, meaning 'river'.
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Many apologies that this was at least half-footnote, but there was much to explain in this update.

Feedback wanted!

- Iluvatar
 
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I've studied the Crusades and thus was familiar with the attack on Zara your POD averted and with Joinville, who is now going to live a very different life.

BTW per the analyses of some scholars in my Crusades class, one major purpose the Popes had in calling the first Crusade and presumably subsequent ones was to leech some of the excess numbers of nobility off the Western European lands. The books I had stressed that the Church was engaged around the end of the eleventh century in a multi-pronged effort to cut down on generic violence in the west, by means of as many expedients as they could think of, and deciding to urge surplus nobles to march off into the East and there join forces with the Eastern Emperors (with whom this particular generation of Popes were engaged in detente with at that time) would have the beneficial effect of cutting down on the quasi-Malthusian excess of ambitious lords seeking to upset the status quo in pursuit of personal advancement--let them use their arms to gain themselves new lordships in the East instead of fighting over established ones in the West!

Now your POD is in a world where Crusades have been going on for a century and hardly reverses their effect overall, being the frustration of just one of handfuls of Crusades. But to an extent, a bunch of French troops who OTL did all their fighting in Greece (well, most of it, also in Dalmatia, which they will not here either) are going back home, and having accomplished nothing at all to boot. I'm pointing out a third place where the knock-on of the POD will kick up some dust versus OTL--France! Just as you have taken on a bit of tracking what happens to Byzantium now, as well as the focus on Dalmatia itself, I'm pointing out France should be different.

At least a little bit. Conceivably if one adds up the number of the force Joinville was in, and compares it to estimates of how many contending lords remained in France who ignored the Crusade call OTL, they are perhaps a drop in the bucket. Or vice versa, if they are a large force they might make a pretty big difference in the politics of the kingdom.

How big a deal will their foes be able to make of their failure to do much as Crusaders? Ironically it is something we uptimers would deem truly noble--holding to their oath not to attack fellow Christians, which they violated big time OTL and not just in Zara--that they will be held in the most scorn in. No one professes to admire an oathbreaker, but these people understood the egg breaking to get omelettes principle long before Lenin uttered it or the omelette itself was invented. Will being held in contempt neutralize them, or will it provoke them to acts of angry defiance that totally transform the history of France? I suppose not the latter since you are not writing a France Transformed TL here.

Is it possible that in view of this particular Crusade being such a fiasco, another ATL replacement one will be called soon and that will draw off a different bunch of recruits so the overall balance in the general thug level of France will remain similar and the alteration of French history boils down to the changes of the names and dynasties, just a reshuffle that will be more and more obscured, converging toward OTL as the centuries pass?
 
What do you (and anyone else interested in contributing to this element of the discussion) think should be done here? Perhaps give Merania eastern Istria and the Rijeka area?
I would do exactly that. Set the eastern border just after Rijeka (but don’t go deep into the hinterland because of the hills/mountains) and the western border should follow the Učka mountain all the way to Plomin Bay (unfortunately I drew the border all the way to the Raša bay, went to far, my bad, I shouldn’t photoshop on a cellphone). Nice natural borders that fit the description of Merania.
I'm pointing out a third place where the knock-on of the POD will kick up some dust versus OTL--France!
This would be very interesting. And what about their voyage back to France? If they have depleted their funds/supplies they could also create problems in northern Italy too.
 
This would be very interesting. And what about their voyage back to France? If they have depleted their funds/supplies they could also create problems in northern Italy too.

In my opinion the two most likely outcome would be participate in a crusade against the Albigensian or help their king against John Lackland, both solution allow them to make a lot of gain by looting, also these wars would be easy and morally just.
 
In my opinion the two most likely outcome would be participate in a crusade against the Albigensian or help their king against John Lackland, both solution allow them to make a lot of gain by looting, also these wars would be easy and morally just.
Well, for a certain skewed relativistic value of "morally just"....:eek:
 
Well, for a certain skewed relativistic value of "morally just"....:eek:

Yeah i should have put the "", what i wanted to tell is that in the mind of the people of this period, going in war against heretics or a vassal guilty of Lèse-majesté was for them morally justified.
 
I'm pointing out a third place where the knock-on of the POD will kick up some dust versus OTL--France!

Do you know, I had barely even considered that aspect. Thanks for bringing it to my attention - it will need addressing, at least in passing.

Joinville

Just to confirm, you are referring to Simon de Joinville?

How big a deal will their foes be able to make of their failure to do much as Crusaders? Ironically it is something we uptimers would deem truly noble--holding to their oath not to attack fellow Christians, which they violated big time OTL and not just in Zara--that they will be held in the most scorn in.

Wouldn't the fact that they were threatened with excommunication reduce the 'amount' of scorn directed towards them? They can hardly be expected to have made good Crusaders if the Pope himself rejected them.

another ATL replacement one will be called soon and that will draw off a different bunch of recruits so the overall balance in the general thug level of France will remain similar

This was my original plan, and I'll probably stick with it.

I would do exactly that. Set the eastern border just after Rijeka (but don’t go deep into the hinterland because of the hills/mountains) and the western border should follow the Učka mountain all the way to Plomin Bay (unfortunately I drew the border all the way to the Raša bay, went to far, my bad, I shouldn’t photoshop on a cellphone). Nice natural borders that fit the description of Merania.

I think that this is pretty much what I'll do. I originally went inland that far because apparently the Andechs conquered Gottschee, Črnomelj and Metlika. But I have since discovered that these were probably attached to their Carniolan fief rather than to the Duchy itself.

they could also create problems in northern Italy too.

That might impact the Lombard League, maybe upsetting Venice's continental allies.

the two most likely outcome would be participate in a crusade against the Albigensian or help their king against John Lackland

This will probably be what happens, though some will likely join the next Crusade. Overall as the 'thug level' (as Shevek called it) will stay pretty similar, there might not be massive differences. Any changes to these wars will also be very peripheral to Zara and might only be mentioned in passing.
 
Chapter 4 - Conquest
Firstly, here's yet another new and improved situation map for the beginning of 1202. I think this is pretty much as accurate as we can realistically hope to achieve, but if there are any problems please don't hesitate to inform me. The changes include a reduction in the number of Serbian islands, the inclusion of Merania and the labelling of the various Istrian fiefs. Carniola was a confusing mix at the time - officially Aquileian, it was parcelled up to the County of Gorizia and the Counts of Andechs (who became the Dukes of Merania), hence its yellow-green colour.

9a9stt.png


And here's the update :)

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1280

Trieste, 1202
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Conquest
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The conquest of western Istria by the Venetians was swift and merciless. Notwithstanding the absence of the Crusader army, the Grand Fleet was more than sufficient to restore the lost territory to Venice. Muggia, a small township on the norther coast, surrendered almost immediately, consenting to receive a Venetian bailo[1] as governor.

Trieste, to the extreme north of the peninsular, resisted for several days. The city was under the loose suzerainty of the Patriarchate of Aquileia, and the Triestine governing council hoped that the Patriarch might dispatch soldiers to aid them. A great chain was laid across the harbour entrance, blocking access to the Venetian war galleys and allowing the Triestines to man the outer defences. However, Aquileia did not move to aid Trieste - the Patriarch, who had been defeated by the Lombard League at Tagliamento in 1201, wished to ally with Venice and separate it from the Lombards[2]. Trieste was not worth the failure of these negotiations. On the 5th of October the harbour-chain was broken and the city fell to Dandolo.

The southerly community of Pola was a smaller and weaker city, but had become accustomed to its rights and liberties after many years of autonomy. The small Polasi fleet was able to hold out against the Venetians around the Brionian Islands[3] for some days, but the lord of the city itself yielded after a short siege. The fleet henceforth fled with as many refugees as wished to escape, coming upon the winds of a storm to Zara on the 6th of October. The allegiance of Pola in 1202 before its conquest is disputed - certainly it was a de facto independent city commune, but it may have been a de jure part of the County of Gorizia or even subject to Merania. In any case, Venice's conquest did not endear the Republic to the various Istrian fiefdoms, which had repercussions later in the history of the Republic.

Venice gained supremacy over the Gulf of Trieste, Istria from Trieste to Premantura[4], and much of the northern Adriatic Sea. Smaller cities in the region, including Chioggia and Caorle, bent to the will of the Venetians in fear. Doge Enrico Dandolo was reported by contemporary scholars to have 'revelled in his victory’, with care ‘neither for the destroyed nor those put to flight’. Gregorio Batano, the Zaratin scholar of the period, wrote extensively on the supposed atrocities committed by the Venetians. Across Dalmatia, the ‘Rape of Istria’ became a foreboding glimpse of what Venice was willing and able to accomplish in victory.

In this way, the success of Venice in Istria proved ultimately to be its downfall. Neither the Doge nor the Great Council could have foreseen what their attack was to provoke. Venice had expected opposition from Merania, Gorizia, and perhaps Aquileia. But it was Dalmatia which Venice had incited to resistance unlooked-for.
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Extract from: The Adriatic Wars
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Footnotes:

[1]
Bailo is the Venetian word for 'bailiff'. These individuals acted as both colonial governors and as diplomats - for example, there was one permanently assigned to the court at Constantinople.

[2] This is OTL. Patriarch Pellegrino II of Aquileia fought against Treviso but was defeated at the Battle of Tagliamento in 1202. His weakness after this defeat forced him to seek an alliance with Venice. What the Republic hoped to gain from betraying the Lombard League, of which it had been a founding member, is unclear. However, Venice seems to have agreed to the alliance at a meeting at San Quirino near Cormons in 1202, but with the price that Aquileia had to forgo its lordship over the Counts of Gorizia. ITTL I have decided that, as a result of insecurity after the collapse of the Crusade, Venice remains loyal to the Lombard League, thus leaving Gorizia under Aquileian influence - perhaps the second semi-important change created by the POD.

[3] The Brionian Islands is another name for the Brijuni Islands.

[4] Premantura is a village south of Pola, on the southernmost tip of Istria.
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Here is a map of the geopolitical situation after the Venetian conquest of western Istria:

1iboza.png


Some changes to mention:
  • Venice has occupied the western coast of Istria.
  • Hungary has occupied the Belgrade region of the Second Bulgarian Empire. This was the result of a campaign during the Bulgarian-Hungarian Wars, which happened ITOL. The events of this war will be looked at in more detail in a later update.
  • You'll notice that Serbia is now a Hungarian vassal. This is because Vukan Nemanjić led a coup against his brother, Grand Prince Stephen, with Hungarian aid. This happened IOTL's 1202, because King Emeric of Hungary wanted Serbian aid against the Bulgarians. Hungary and Serbia successfully conquered Belgrade and Niš respectively, but lost them to a Bulgarian counteroffensive in 1203.
  • Vukan's hold over Serbia is weak, however, as his Catholic sympathies are unpopular with the people.
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Feedback wanted!

- Iluvatar
 
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Chapter 5 - Reaction
As the POD of this TL averts the Fourth Crusade, the conquest and collapse of the (Eastern) Roman Empire (a.k.a Byzantium or Rhōmania) does not happen, at least in the same way. My question to my lovely readers is therefore; what do you expect to see happen to the Empire? I have a few ideas - those of you who read the original TL will have some idea of what these might be - but I would appreciate input, discussion and debate to help ensure that what I write about its fate is well-informed and grounded in historical realities. Please feel free to discuss this with me and between yourselves in thread!

Now, the update:
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zadar16.jpg

Dalmatia, circa 1202 (East at the top)
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Reactions
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The Dalmatian city-states, including municipalities such as Ragusa, Spalatro, and Zara, had existed since the Slavic invasions of Illyria after the fall of Rome. The Dalmatian people were largely Latinate, descendants of the Roman population which had inhabited the region during the years of Imperial strength. Like the Venetians in their Lagoon, the Dalmatians sought refuge from invaders in defended coastal enclaves. Initially dominated solely by Latin culture and language, over the years a fusion of Romantic and Slavic cultures was established as Croats from the hinterland began to migrate to the coastal cities[1].

By 1202, this state of affairs had endured for many long years, despite the ever-shifting nature of geopolitics, which placed the cities successively under Greek, Hungarian, Croatian and Venetian control during different time periods. By this time the cities were divided in their loyalties - most of the northern cities were under the protection of King Emeric of Hungary, whilst many of the southern cities and offshore islands were nominally subject to the Greek Emperor in Constantinople.

Venice had exerted control over many of the Dalmatian cities in times past, leading them in league against the Narentine pirates of Pagania in the 11th century[2]. Since that time the Republic had claimed the territories as its own, disputing the Hungarian claim to sovereignty. It was particularly gruelling for the Venetians in 1181, when the Zaratins revolted against their unpopular rule and proclaimed their allegiance to the Hungarian Crown[3]. This occurred concurrently to a general loss of Venetian control over the rest of Dalmatia, and even western Istria[4].

Doge Dandolo coveted the Adriatic littoral for its wealth, to gain supreme control of the Adriatic trade routes, and to eliminate their commercial rivals - in particular, Zara and Ragusa.

The leaders of the Dalmatian cities saw the looting and burning of Istria, and feared the wrath of the Serene Republic. On the 10th of October 1202 the Zaratin Comes, Antonio Begna, dispatched envoys to Ragusa, Tragura and the other cities, with important instructions for his legations[5].
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Extract from: A Study of the Istrian War
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A contemporary letter:

(From Pero Detrico, Bailo Plenipotentiary of the government of His Serenity Comes Antonio Begna of Zara to the court of His Serenity Rector Marco Caboga of Ragusa; to His Excellency Todra Celio, Bailo Plenipotentiary of Tragura to the court of His Serenity Comes Marco Caboga of Ragusa.)


12th October 1202

Your Excellency:

An issue has come to the notice of the Zaratin legation in Ragusa, the significance of which may outstrip any other which we have faced in recent years. However, as it appears to involve governmental matters, here in Ragusa, at Zara, and to your government in Tragura, I am convinced that I am right to seek a direct correspondence with you. Frankly, I am unwilling to pursue this issue further without your advice.

Put succinctly, the situation is as follows: We have information, here at the Zaratin Legation, which suggests that a General Council of the eight Dalmatian cities is to take place. This information was obtained yesterday from a junior envoy, a man called Damian Zadulin, who arrived from Zara that morning; he is being accommodated here with all required privileges. Upon arrival, he had in his possession a manuscript, containing a number of documents; these are of such an astonishing nature that the under-officials declined to assume responsibility for them beyond conducting the man to the Legation.

Having held audience with this envoy and examined his documents, I am, I confess, in a similar position. This is not any ordinary diplomatic intrigue; there is something very strange and new here. The contents of these documents, taken alone, are unprecedented, which encourages the belief that they have been fabricated. I cannot in good faith adopt this theory, however, as the envoy appears a man of perfect integrity, and because he bears the seal of my master, His Serenity the Comes.

The documents in question include, along with copies of the various charters and letters of safe conduct issued by my government at Zara, a direct letter to me and the chief officers of the Zaratin Legation from the His Serenity the Comes himself. This last is deserving of your particular attention; ordinarily I would not attach a private message from my government in any correspondence with representatives of a foreign power, but you shall find it affixed to the reverse of this page. Put briefly, it contains instruction and authority from my master to request and require in the name of His Serenity the presence of Ragusan governmental officials at a council of the Dalmatian polities, to be held on the sixteenth of this month.

The envoy, Damian Zadulin, is now lodged in an apartment here at the Legation; he is being treated with every consideration, and will be available for an audience with the Traguran Legation upon request.


I am, most anxiously awaiting your advice,

Pero Detrico
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Footnotes:

[1] There is some dispute concerning the degree of Slavicisation in the Dalmatian cities by 1200. What seems clear is that governmental matters were usually dealt with in the Dalmatian language (which evolved from regional dialects of Latin) whereas Slav was becoming more prevalent among the masses. My aim in TTL is to have the 'Ragusan model' operate on a pan-Dalmatian scale - i.e. in fear of Slavicisation, Dalmatian officially becomes the sole permitted language in governance in all eight cities, ultimately trickling down into education and thus preserving the language. Ultimately a bilingual society will probably develop. Hopefully this wasn't too much of a spoiler, but I wanted to preempt nationalistic concerns.

[2] This occurred IOTL, perhaps the earliest instance during which Venice was the supreme authority in Dalmatia (willingly accepted by Zara and the others at the time).

[3] This occurred IOTL.

[4] We know that Venice retained influence in Istria as late as 1192, when the Republic recovered the city of Pola from an occupying Pisan force. However, as Venice had to use force to reassert control even IOTL, it is clear that this power had been lost by 1202.

[5] This is important; basically, IOTL such a summons was never issued because the Venetian attack came so swiftly - at least, that's the assumption of this TL. There is historic precedent for common Dalmatian alliances (see the above mention of the Narentine pirates), so I believe the calling of such a Council is plausible, perhaps even probable, in response to a Venetian conquest of Istria in conjunction with disclosed plans for an invasion of Dalmatia.
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Please let me know what you thought of the use of a letter as part of the narrative. Would you like to see more?

Any other feedback appreciated and encouraged.

Thanks!

- Iluvatar
 
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[1] There is some dispute concerning the degree of Slavicisation in the Dalmatian cities by 1200. What seems clear is that governmental matters were usually dealt with in the Dalmatian language (which evolved from regional dialects of Latin) whereas Slav was becoming more prevalent among the masses. My aim in TTL is to have the 'Ragusan model' operate on a pan-Dalmatian scale - i.e. in fear of Slavicisation, Dalmatian officially becomes the sole permitted language in governance in all eight cities, ultimately trickling down into education and thus preserving the language. Ultimately a bilingual society will probably develop. Hopefully this wasn't too much of a spoiler, but I wanted to preempt nationalistic concerns.
Weirdly I think you'll get something like the Norman & English situation where Dalmatian Romance (Dalmace/Dalmacki) like Norman will heavily influence Slavic but go extinct outside of a few legal and administrative jargon. On the plus side Dalmatian Slavic (Dalmatinski) would be poised to be its own recognised language.
 
Cool, I remember this TL from before! I don’t think I commented on it last time, which is a shame because it’s an interesting idea and well-written.

Weirdly I think you'll get something like the Norman & English situation where Dalmatian Romance (Dalmace/Dalmacki) like Norman will heavily influence Slavic but go extinct outside of a few legal and administrative jargon. On the plus side Dalmatian Slavic (Dalmatinski) would be poised to be its own recognised language.

IOTL Dalmatian didn’t go extinct until 1898, so if it was just a bit more promoted I don’t see why it couldn’t survive. It may depend on Dalmatian politics, and could have major repercussions on how it is preserved, though. I could see Croats protesting against the outlawing of their language in official circles, which could cause tensions to rise eventually, for instance.
 
Please let me know what you thought of the use of a letter as part of the narrative. Would you like to see more?
This was good for me. I would like to see more of it.

Weirdly I think you'll get something like the Norman & English situation where Dalmatian Romance (Dalmace/Dalmacki) like Norman will heavily influence Slavic but go extinct outside of a few legal and administrative jargon. On the plus side Dalmatian Slavic (Dalmatinski) would be poised to be its own recognised language.
This happened in OTL however the main reason why it happened was that Venice after buying most of Dalmatia in 1409 took on a much larger area then before and this area contained huge amounts of Croatian speakers that overwhelmed the Dalmatians (while the Dalmatians were being Venetianized themselves at the same time). Same thing happened when the Republic of Ragusa expanded too fast and incorporated huge amounts of Slavic speakers. Add to that that the cities were already heavily bilingual at that time (a necessity for trade with the hinterland), and with the arrival of the Ottomans pushing along a lot of Slavic speaking refugees into Dalmatia, then you can see that Dalmatian is screwed longterm. Not even legislation was able to turn the tide in OTL.

However, in OTL the Slavic speakers were heavily influenced by Dalmatian despite the unfavorable circumstances for the Dalmatian speakers. In an ATL that favors the Dalmatians thing could go differently. With this ATL you can prevent Venetization of Dalmatian speakers and keep the high prestige of Dalmatian cities among its neighbors, making Dalmatian a more lucrative language to learn. It might just thrive with the right circumstances.
 
I hope Byzantium hangs on. Nothing crazy like invading egypt or taking over italy. But i dont want to see them fall. I would like to see them keep asia minor and the pontic Coast, slowly recuperating and maybe eventually regaining anatolia:)
 
As the POD of this TL averts the Fourth Crusade, the conquest and collapse of the (Eastern) Roman Empire (a.k.a Byzantium or Rhōmania) does not happen, at least in the same way. My question to my lovely readers is therefore; what do you expect to see happen to the Empire?
Personally, I would love to see the Romans recovering the Balkans and the coastal regions of Asia, plus Antiochia. Most importantly I would like to see them stable and able to play a relevant role on the international scenario (maybe siding with the dalmatians against the venetians?)
 
Vis a vis Rhomania:

I want to see them survive too, but at this point you can’t just get rid of the Anatolian Turks. I’d suggest that they Christianize or else hold onto the interior while remaining Muslim somehow.

EDIT: Oh, and can Cilician Armenia be saved too somehow? That would be nice.
 
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While I don't know all that much about the Dalmatian city-states during this time period I'm excited to see where you go with this timeline.

Also regarding the Byzantines, I think they would be relatively stagnate in the early 13th Century under the Angeloi, or they could even experience a protracted decline depending on the circumstances. But, if the Byzantines can replace the Angeloi with a relatively competent and capable dynasty, and the quicker the better, then they have a pretty good opportunity to rebound compared to OTL.
 
I would also like to see Byzantium survive but then again I think anything beyond Antioch would be a massive push I think assimilation of the Anatolian Turks and recovery of the Pontic should be its focus. But as much as I love Byzantium I don’t wnat them to distract from the focus on Dalmatia.
 
The Venetian threat is becoming ever more palpable. Will a Dalmatian alliance be strong enough to resist the ambitions of the blind doge?
 
Just to let you know that the next update will be tomorrow, because I have work today. Feel free to continue discussing!

Weirdly I think you'll get something like the Norman & English situation where Dalmatian Romance (Dalmace/Dalmacki) like Norman will heavily influence Slavic but go extinct outside of a few legal and administrative jargon. On the plus side Dalmatian Slavic (Dalmatinski) would be poised to be its own recognised language.

My 'objective' with regards to language and culture is to enable the survival of Dalmatian as a recognisable separate language, so it won't go 'extinct' in the same way as Norman French. However, there will be a large amount of synthesis and exchange of words, terms and cultural practices. But as I am not a linguist, I probably won't go into enormous depth on the topic beyond general trends in Dalmatian society.

Cool, I remember this TL from before! I don’t think I commented on it last time, which is a shame because it’s an interesting idea and well-written.

Thank you, you are very kind. Feel free to stick around and contribute, all constructive input is welcomed :)

IOTL Dalmatian didn’t go extinct until 1898, so if it was just a bit more promoted I don’t see why it couldn’t survive. It may depend on Dalmatian politics, and could have major repercussions on how it is preserved, though. I could see Croats protesting against the outlawing of their language in official circles, which could cause tensions to rise eventually, for instance.

There may indeed be conflict between different ethnolinguistic groups in Dalmatia - I haven't decided exactly how the TL will end, so this may or may not end up being a major issue. I might do 'flash-forwards' to key points such as industrialisation, nationalism, and so forth.

This was good for me. I would like to see more of it.

Noted ;)

With this ATL you can prevent Venetization of Dalmatian speakers and keep the high prestige of Dalmatian cities among its neighbors, making Dalmatian a more lucrative language to learn. It might just thrive with the right circumstances.

My idea to maintain Dalmatian revolves around the establishment of educational institutions which teach only in Dalmatian. This would mean that, unlike OTL, the government + the educated middle classes and the merchants would retain Dalmatian and keep it alive. Therefore in later centuries (as previously mentioned, might do 'flash-forwards') when the printing-press is introduced, media is produced in Dalmatian and thus 'Dalmatianises' the Croatian speakers of the hinterland, at least to some extent. IOTL Venetian schools or institutions of learning in Dalmatia taught in Venetian or Latin, thus, as you say, 'Venetising' the region.

I hope Byzantium hangs on.

Oh, it'll hang on alright, at least for now. It won't do spectacularly well under the Angeloi, however.

Most importantly I would like to see them stable and able to play a relevant role on the international scenario (maybe siding with the dalmatians against the venetians?)

They will manage this - after a 'change of circumstances' in Constantinople, shall we say. They will also become involved once again in Adriatic politics, at least to some extent.

I want to see them survive too, but at this point you can’t just get rid of the Anatolian Turks. I’d suggest that they Christianize or else hold onto the interior while remaining Muslim somehow.

The Turkish issue will be a challenge for the Empire, but they've successfully absorbed foreign cultures before. Only time will tell!

Oh, and can Cilician Armenia be saved too somehow? That would be nice.

We'll have to see about that - obviously it's quite far out of the scope of the TL, but the Dalmatians may end up establishing commercial ties that far east.

While I don't know all that much about the Dalmatian city-states during this time period I'm excited to see where you go with this timeline.

Thanks, hope you stick around to see what happens. Feel free to continue contributing!

I think they would be relatively stagnate in the early 13th Century under the Angeloi, or they could even experience a protracted decline depending on the circumstances. But, if the Byzantines can replace the Angeloi with a relatively competent and capable dynasty, and the quicker the better, then they have a pretty good opportunity to rebound compared to OTL.

All I can say is, 'wait and see' :p

I would also like to see Byzantium survive but then again I think anything beyond Antioch would be a massive push I think assimilation of the Anatolian Turks and recovery of the Pontic should be its focus.

Yep, sounds about right to me.

I don’t wnat them to distract from the focus on Dalmatia.

No, neither do I. Whenever Byzantine issues are mentioned it will be in a context of its effects on Dalmatia. This was one reason why I wanted to reboot the TL, because last time the focus kind of drifted away.

The Venetian threat is becoming ever more palpable. Will a Dalmatian alliance be strong enough to resist the ambitions of the blind doge?

You'll just have to watch and wait :biggrin:
 
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