I wonder how many people around the country (those who survived the madness of the early days) would be growing vegetable gardens, simply because it's... doable. Growing grain and processing it into bread is hard and complicated (especially in a pre-industrial world), and requires a lot of special equipment; hard to imagine that there are a lot of people around who have the knowledge and the equipment handy. But growing vegetables is something that a lot of healthy people could manage, even with a lot of trial and error (and those who have too many errors are likely doomed)... dig up ground, plant seeds, water, fertilize, hope for the best. Granted, it's not all easy, but compared to grain...
Your region in Dies the Fire?
- Thread starter Umbral
- Start date
That probably is what happens. We go back to subsistence farming. Nothing large scale because there isn't a market for anything because everyone is too busy trying to adjust to the new-old world. You see small family and community based operations that slowly expand until a crude system of expertise is established and trade between regions can start.
I tried to contact Mr. Stirling about one area that has been horribly misrepresented in the Emberverse Series. I am not from this geographic area but I have lived here for many years. Since I could not send the email on his own website, I am going to post the majority of it here and hopefully get some kind of feedback.
"While I understand that your story line does not call for it, I sincerely believe that the survivability of one geographic area of the United States has been severely underestimated. To include it in the “Death Zones” makes very little sense. In March of 1998, this area was effectively an island and only had one city that had a population in excess of 30,000. It encompasses over 5400 square miles and perhaps had a population of only 675,000. The area that I am referring to is the Delmarva Peninsula, sometimes called the Eastern Shore.
While it is true that Delmarva is surrounded by metropolitan areas, there is a significant geographic buffer that keeps Delmarva separate. The Delmarva Peninsula is not, geographically speaking, a peninsula at all. It is completely surrounded by water, so in reality it is an island. Completed in 1829, the Chesapeake and Delaware (C&D) Canal physically separates Delmarva from the rest of the Mid-Atlantic region. The result of this, in a world without electricity, internal combustion or other means of rapid overland transit, is a severe geographic bottleneck broken only by a total of eight bridges connecting Delmarva to the mainland. Even though it may be said by one who does not know the region that this is a way, these routes would be quite difficult and far from appealing to hordes of starving and desperate foot traffic.
Of these eight bridges, all but two are on the C&D Canal. The C&D Canal runs south of all of the largest population centers near Philadelphia and there is an additional buffer between it and these population centers. The small cities of Wilmington, Newark, and New Castle all separate the C&D Canal from Philadelphia and would have absorbed and countered any refugee groups moving south-west with their own refugee groups moving north. In contrast to Delmarva, the southern area of New Jersey, which gives the state the moniker of “The Garden State” would have been a prime destination for refugees because of the enormous number of farms and gardens as potential food sources acting as a lure for the starving inhabitants of Philadelphia right across the Delaware River. While these small cities would have caused their own refugee influx, this would be bottlenecked by the location of the bridges over the Canal, there would have still been many miles of rural farmland acting as an additional buffer, and the flow of traffic could have also easily been controlled by the local populations which would have seen any large number of refugees as a potential threat to their very lives and livelihoods. Small towns such as Delaware City, Chesapeake City, and St. Georges could have easily controlled the bridges that split their own towns and many other towns in the area would have seen that it was in their own interest to control access to the bridges and limit it to local populations.
The remaining two bridges are both obstacles to refugees in their own right. The first is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. It is the only land route, besides the previously mentioned C&D Canal bridges, that connects the major population centers of Washington D.C. and Baltimore to Delmarva. (The C&D Canal is still days away from starving pedestrians coming out of Baltimore, and would be a very poor and unlikely route.) It is situated approximately halfway between D.C and Baltimore, but is east of both of them with about 15 or more miles of small cities and other towns including Annapolis acting as counters to their populations as they approach the bridge. This is where the journey east would end for many as the bridge itself then rises as a deadly specter with a nearly 200 foot high dual span roadway over 4 miles long, traversing over the Chesapeake Bay. The bridge is known for its high winds, and combining this with its height, length and reputation as a killer, along with it being “one of the scariest bridges in the world”, would likely give the majority of refugees sufficient reason to continue north or south instead of attempting such a risk when they cannot be sure of what would be waiting on the other side. On the other side, those that braved the crossing would have found themselves on Kent Island and in the town of Stevensville. To get off of Kent Island they would still have to make it through two more towns on the island as well as the temptation of the farms that can be seen from the highway. If they managed to continue on the highway, they would then have to cross the Kent Narrows Bridge and travel through several more towns that would be less and less friendly to strangers as time went on.
The last bridge is not really a bridge at all. It is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel. Ironically depending on who is asked, the Bridge-Tunnel might be even more frightening than the Bay Bridge. Including the toll plazas, the three separate sections linked to each other by two two-mile underwater tunnels and the causeway over and through the swampland on the Delmarva side, it is over 23 miles long. During 1998 it was still only a two lane bridge with the other two lanes still under construction. It has been damaged by ship collisions and required extensive repairs multiple times since its opening and would be very likely to be a victim of a large tanker no longer under power. Which, if the massive 50000+ ton bulk of a merchant ship or tanker, drifted or was forced by winds into the bridge, it could destroy the bridge as a viable route of exodus with it sheer mass. This is not really speculation or wishful thinking as dozens or even hundreds of massive merchant vessels pass over the tunnels every day. Even if the Bridge somehow dodged a bullet, the trek would be an arduous one for people desperate for food or water. While Hampton Roads is a major population center, it is well spread out with abundant farmland to the south and west, and the vast majority of the people would know not to risk the long hike that would most likely end up as a dead end. This is in part because of the shape of Delmarva as it approaches the mouth of the Chesapeake. Cape Charles is a very narrow strip of land no more than 5 miles across dotted with small towns and farms full of somewhat clannish people that are deeply rooted to the area, whose friends and neighbors have the same last name as their ancestors’ friends and neighbors. This continues for another 40 miles until the town of Exmore which is more than 60 miles from Virginia Beach where any would-be refugees would have started from. These extensive natural barriers coupled with a population that is distrustful of outsiders and has a large portion of the population that enjoys bow hunting, would easily stifle and stop any large immigration.
Once the influx of refugees into the area has been addressed, immediate survival of the population is the next issue. Delmarva is a virtual storehouse of agricultural products and other foodstuffs. There are several food distribution and canning facilities on Delmarva from companies like Lankford-SYSCO, Kraft, Purdue, Campbell’s, and Tyson’s. Chicken and seafood production is accomplished year-round along with eggs, dairy, and other animal based food production.
The Eastern Shore also has an enormous and incredibly varied agricultural base. While large scale production would be severely hampered by the lack of high energy technology, large gardens worked by hand were the norm. Even in many of the towns, there were family gardens out back and pantries full of home canned goods made from the recipes handed down from residents’ mom moms. Amish communities in Maryland and Delaware, working the land in the same ways as the times before mass farming was a practice could easily provide knowledge and experience to their neighbors. As you pass through dozens of small towns dotting Delmarva’s roads, it is easy to see an abundance of barns and sheds that still contain the farming equipment that pop-pop used to use, waiting to be cleaned, repaired and put back to work. Many small farmers and large gardeners had equipment with which they could cultivate small plots without the assistance from animals. These were usually made from more metal and less wood, lending to their longevity. All of this could easily help return the region to low energy, large scale agricultural production in the course of months. Primitive skills, ranging from soap making with beeswax or animal fat, carpentry, building, masonry, smithing, bow making, and a myriad of other primitive crafts essential to survival in a low energy world, were abundant as could be seen from the numerous small town festivals held every season. Horses and other livestock are common on Delmarva. There is also a readily available population of feral horses on the barrier islands of Chincoteague and Assateague.
Centers of education and repositories of knowledge abound on Delmarva. Servicing this small population are no less than five universities as well as satellite campuses for 3 others. Numerous community colleges are spread throughout. These repositories of knowledge and education are somewhat tailored to the area as the majority are focused on agriculture, business, and healthcare with some emphasis on science, technology and manufacturing. There are some that are liberal arts, but they have small student bodies and campuses. In addition to this, Delmarva is home to the Wallops Island NASA Flight Facility and Navy AEGIS Testing Facility, both with skilled engineers and scientists and supported by local facilities of such companies as Lockheed-Martin, Raytheon, and Boeing.
There are also several martial arts schools scattered throughout. Hunting is popular, and many hunters use bows. The Osage Orange Tree is grown here and is recognized as an excellent wood to make bows with. Perhaps the only possible shortage on Delmarva might be the lack of mines for metals. But this would not be an issue for many years as there would be an abundance of scrap metals available. There is a small blacksmithing cottage industry on Delmarva, and there is also a history of smelting metals in places such as Furnacetown in Maryland.
The people of Delmarva, particularly in the lower parts of the area, below Salisbury, tend to be stubborn, somewhat insular, and perhaps a bit clannish in their world view. However, any who think that they are stupid or uneducated based on their portrayal in popular media is a fool. Delmarva has been called lower and slower as an insult for many years by their metropolitan neighbors across the Canal. A Maryland governor once called the Eastern Shore of Maryland the outhouse of the state. But these same places were once hailed as the “Breadbasket of the Revolution”.
Have you never heard of the Maryland 400 or the Delaware Blues? The people of Delmarva have a well-earned reputation for courage and discipline in combat. Any reader of American history would know about the local population’s stellar reputation. The men of Delmarva were so courageous that they were commented on by George Washington himself. He went so far as to assign them as his rear-guard during the evacuation of Manhattan because they were the only troops in the Continental Army that he could rely on to protect his other troops as they were withdrawing. They were the last troops driven from the field by the British during the Battle of Camden, even though they were outnumbered nearly 4 to 1, and even then their line was only broken with the death of General Johann De Kalb. Nathaniel Greene used them as the backbone of his forces during the Battle of Guilford Courthouse. While their reputation started during the American Revolutionary War, it is still relevant. Stephen Decatur, one of the most celebrated captains in US Naval History, one of the great heroes of the War of 1812 hailed from the Eastern Shore. During the Civil War, Delaware had a higher percentage of service per capita than any other state in the Union. Military service is still quite common in the region as many see it both as a patriotic duty and a means to gain an education or skill. Tens of thousands of Delmarva folks are military veterans. And there are numerous Coast Guard Stations that could join with Dover Air Force Base to act as a basis for military organization, practices, and discipline.
The central pillar of most Delmarva communities is the local church. Even in small towns, church congregations are the primary means of social interaction and inter-reliance. In addition to this, most towns fund, equip and operate their own volunteer firefighter departments which brings a sense of community and shared responsibility, this further separates them from those they consider outsiders. There are only two cities over 15000 people. Salisbury, Maryland is known as the “crossroads of Delmarva because of its central location and confluence of highways and railroads that run through Delmarva. The other is Dover, Delaware which is a sprawling small city with lots of open space and the feel of a small town.
There are many advantages that Delmarva would have in a “Change”-like event. It is geographically isolated, has extensive food reserves year round and abundant agricultural resources, holds a large pool of experience for the various needs of a low energy society, is primarily rural, and has a solid military and patriotic tradition.
I understand that some people would suffer, but Delmarva as a whole would more likely come through such an event, largely intact. It could break down into towns and communities consisting of extended families, towns and counties, or competing areas that view each other with no little bit of rancor. If the right people came along with the right message, ideas, and plan, Delmarva could easily end up as a unified “state”, something that has been on the wish list of many Delmarva inhabitants for decades.
I am a transplant to Delmarva. I met my wife while stationed on ship with her brother, she is from Delmarva. I am not a local, but I have come to appreciate some of the advantages that the area would have if the “Change” would have occurred. I would have been kind of screwed if the change would have happened as I was on a small ship many miles from shore. Even if I could have made it back to shore I would have had to cross half of the country to get back to my family while the world was falling apart. If you have any questions about my perspective, rebuttals, or any other remarks, I would love to hear back from you about it. Thank you."
"While I understand that your story line does not call for it, I sincerely believe that the survivability of one geographic area of the United States has been severely underestimated. To include it in the “Death Zones” makes very little sense. In March of 1998, this area was effectively an island and only had one city that had a population in excess of 30,000. It encompasses over 5400 square miles and perhaps had a population of only 675,000. The area that I am referring to is the Delmarva Peninsula, sometimes called the Eastern Shore.
While it is true that Delmarva is surrounded by metropolitan areas, there is a significant geographic buffer that keeps Delmarva separate. The Delmarva Peninsula is not, geographically speaking, a peninsula at all. It is completely surrounded by water, so in reality it is an island. Completed in 1829, the Chesapeake and Delaware (C&D) Canal physically separates Delmarva from the rest of the Mid-Atlantic region. The result of this, in a world without electricity, internal combustion or other means of rapid overland transit, is a severe geographic bottleneck broken only by a total of eight bridges connecting Delmarva to the mainland. Even though it may be said by one who does not know the region that this is a way, these routes would be quite difficult and far from appealing to hordes of starving and desperate foot traffic.
Of these eight bridges, all but two are on the C&D Canal. The C&D Canal runs south of all of the largest population centers near Philadelphia and there is an additional buffer between it and these population centers. The small cities of Wilmington, Newark, and New Castle all separate the C&D Canal from Philadelphia and would have absorbed and countered any refugee groups moving south-west with their own refugee groups moving north. In contrast to Delmarva, the southern area of New Jersey, which gives the state the moniker of “The Garden State” would have been a prime destination for refugees because of the enormous number of farms and gardens as potential food sources acting as a lure for the starving inhabitants of Philadelphia right across the Delaware River. While these small cities would have caused their own refugee influx, this would be bottlenecked by the location of the bridges over the Canal, there would have still been many miles of rural farmland acting as an additional buffer, and the flow of traffic could have also easily been controlled by the local populations which would have seen any large number of refugees as a potential threat to their very lives and livelihoods. Small towns such as Delaware City, Chesapeake City, and St. Georges could have easily controlled the bridges that split their own towns and many other towns in the area would have seen that it was in their own interest to control access to the bridges and limit it to local populations.
The remaining two bridges are both obstacles to refugees in their own right. The first is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. It is the only land route, besides the previously mentioned C&D Canal bridges, that connects the major population centers of Washington D.C. and Baltimore to Delmarva. (The C&D Canal is still days away from starving pedestrians coming out of Baltimore, and would be a very poor and unlikely route.) It is situated approximately halfway between D.C and Baltimore, but is east of both of them with about 15 or more miles of small cities and other towns including Annapolis acting as counters to their populations as they approach the bridge. This is where the journey east would end for many as the bridge itself then rises as a deadly specter with a nearly 200 foot high dual span roadway over 4 miles long, traversing over the Chesapeake Bay. The bridge is known for its high winds, and combining this with its height, length and reputation as a killer, along with it being “one of the scariest bridges in the world”, would likely give the majority of refugees sufficient reason to continue north or south instead of attempting such a risk when they cannot be sure of what would be waiting on the other side. On the other side, those that braved the crossing would have found themselves on Kent Island and in the town of Stevensville. To get off of Kent Island they would still have to make it through two more towns on the island as well as the temptation of the farms that can be seen from the highway. If they managed to continue on the highway, they would then have to cross the Kent Narrows Bridge and travel through several more towns that would be less and less friendly to strangers as time went on.
The last bridge is not really a bridge at all. It is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel. Ironically depending on who is asked, the Bridge-Tunnel might be even more frightening than the Bay Bridge. Including the toll plazas, the three separate sections linked to each other by two two-mile underwater tunnels and the causeway over and through the swampland on the Delmarva side, it is over 23 miles long. During 1998 it was still only a two lane bridge with the other two lanes still under construction. It has been damaged by ship collisions and required extensive repairs multiple times since its opening and would be very likely to be a victim of a large tanker no longer under power. Which, if the massive 50000+ ton bulk of a merchant ship or tanker, drifted or was forced by winds into the bridge, it could destroy the bridge as a viable route of exodus with it sheer mass. This is not really speculation or wishful thinking as dozens or even hundreds of massive merchant vessels pass over the tunnels every day. Even if the Bridge somehow dodged a bullet, the trek would be an arduous one for people desperate for food or water. While Hampton Roads is a major population center, it is well spread out with abundant farmland to the south and west, and the vast majority of the people would know not to risk the long hike that would most likely end up as a dead end. This is in part because of the shape of Delmarva as it approaches the mouth of the Chesapeake. Cape Charles is a very narrow strip of land no more than 5 miles across dotted with small towns and farms full of somewhat clannish people that are deeply rooted to the area, whose friends and neighbors have the same last name as their ancestors’ friends and neighbors. This continues for another 40 miles until the town of Exmore which is more than 60 miles from Virginia Beach where any would-be refugees would have started from. These extensive natural barriers coupled with a population that is distrustful of outsiders and has a large portion of the population that enjoys bow hunting, would easily stifle and stop any large immigration.
Once the influx of refugees into the area has been addressed, immediate survival of the population is the next issue. Delmarva is a virtual storehouse of agricultural products and other foodstuffs. There are several food distribution and canning facilities on Delmarva from companies like Lankford-SYSCO, Kraft, Purdue, Campbell’s, and Tyson’s. Chicken and seafood production is accomplished year-round along with eggs, dairy, and other animal based food production.
The Eastern Shore also has an enormous and incredibly varied agricultural base. While large scale production would be severely hampered by the lack of high energy technology, large gardens worked by hand were the norm. Even in many of the towns, there were family gardens out back and pantries full of home canned goods made from the recipes handed down from residents’ mom moms. Amish communities in Maryland and Delaware, working the land in the same ways as the times before mass farming was a practice could easily provide knowledge and experience to their neighbors. As you pass through dozens of small towns dotting Delmarva’s roads, it is easy to see an abundance of barns and sheds that still contain the farming equipment that pop-pop used to use, waiting to be cleaned, repaired and put back to work. Many small farmers and large gardeners had equipment with which they could cultivate small plots without the assistance from animals. These were usually made from more metal and less wood, lending to their longevity. All of this could easily help return the region to low energy, large scale agricultural production in the course of months. Primitive skills, ranging from soap making with beeswax or animal fat, carpentry, building, masonry, smithing, bow making, and a myriad of other primitive crafts essential to survival in a low energy world, were abundant as could be seen from the numerous small town festivals held every season. Horses and other livestock are common on Delmarva. There is also a readily available population of feral horses on the barrier islands of Chincoteague and Assateague.
Centers of education and repositories of knowledge abound on Delmarva. Servicing this small population are no less than five universities as well as satellite campuses for 3 others. Numerous community colleges are spread throughout. These repositories of knowledge and education are somewhat tailored to the area as the majority are focused on agriculture, business, and healthcare with some emphasis on science, technology and manufacturing. There are some that are liberal arts, but they have small student bodies and campuses. In addition to this, Delmarva is home to the Wallops Island NASA Flight Facility and Navy AEGIS Testing Facility, both with skilled engineers and scientists and supported by local facilities of such companies as Lockheed-Martin, Raytheon, and Boeing.
There are also several martial arts schools scattered throughout. Hunting is popular, and many hunters use bows. The Osage Orange Tree is grown here and is recognized as an excellent wood to make bows with. Perhaps the only possible shortage on Delmarva might be the lack of mines for metals. But this would not be an issue for many years as there would be an abundance of scrap metals available. There is a small blacksmithing cottage industry on Delmarva, and there is also a history of smelting metals in places such as Furnacetown in Maryland.
The people of Delmarva, particularly in the lower parts of the area, below Salisbury, tend to be stubborn, somewhat insular, and perhaps a bit clannish in their world view. However, any who think that they are stupid or uneducated based on their portrayal in popular media is a fool. Delmarva has been called lower and slower as an insult for many years by their metropolitan neighbors across the Canal. A Maryland governor once called the Eastern Shore of Maryland the outhouse of the state. But these same places were once hailed as the “Breadbasket of the Revolution”.
Have you never heard of the Maryland 400 or the Delaware Blues? The people of Delmarva have a well-earned reputation for courage and discipline in combat. Any reader of American history would know about the local population’s stellar reputation. The men of Delmarva were so courageous that they were commented on by George Washington himself. He went so far as to assign them as his rear-guard during the evacuation of Manhattan because they were the only troops in the Continental Army that he could rely on to protect his other troops as they were withdrawing. They were the last troops driven from the field by the British during the Battle of Camden, even though they were outnumbered nearly 4 to 1, and even then their line was only broken with the death of General Johann De Kalb. Nathaniel Greene used them as the backbone of his forces during the Battle of Guilford Courthouse. While their reputation started during the American Revolutionary War, it is still relevant. Stephen Decatur, one of the most celebrated captains in US Naval History, one of the great heroes of the War of 1812 hailed from the Eastern Shore. During the Civil War, Delaware had a higher percentage of service per capita than any other state in the Union. Military service is still quite common in the region as many see it both as a patriotic duty and a means to gain an education or skill. Tens of thousands of Delmarva folks are military veterans. And there are numerous Coast Guard Stations that could join with Dover Air Force Base to act as a basis for military organization, practices, and discipline.
The central pillar of most Delmarva communities is the local church. Even in small towns, church congregations are the primary means of social interaction and inter-reliance. In addition to this, most towns fund, equip and operate their own volunteer firefighter departments which brings a sense of community and shared responsibility, this further separates them from those they consider outsiders. There are only two cities over 15000 people. Salisbury, Maryland is known as the “crossroads of Delmarva because of its central location and confluence of highways and railroads that run through Delmarva. The other is Dover, Delaware which is a sprawling small city with lots of open space and the feel of a small town.
There are many advantages that Delmarva would have in a “Change”-like event. It is geographically isolated, has extensive food reserves year round and abundant agricultural resources, holds a large pool of experience for the various needs of a low energy society, is primarily rural, and has a solid military and patriotic tradition.
I understand that some people would suffer, but Delmarva as a whole would more likely come through such an event, largely intact. It could break down into towns and communities consisting of extended families, towns and counties, or competing areas that view each other with no little bit of rancor. If the right people came along with the right message, ideas, and plan, Delmarva could easily end up as a unified “state”, something that has been on the wish list of many Delmarva inhabitants for decades.
I am a transplant to Delmarva. I met my wife while stationed on ship with her brother, she is from Delmarva. I am not a local, but I have come to appreciate some of the advantages that the area would have if the “Change” would have occurred. I would have been kind of screwed if the change would have happened as I was on a small ship many miles from shore. Even if I could have made it back to shore I would have had to cross half of the country to get back to my family while the world was falling apart. If you have any questions about my perspective, rebuttals, or any other remarks, I would love to hear back from you about it. Thank you."
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One of my all time favorite books..In 1998 I was somewhere within 60 miles of Memphis, Tn and would have been trying to make it west to Oklahoma or Texas. Probably never would have made it. If it occurred now...well no chance..Florida would be cannibal country the first day.
in 1998, I was living in eastern OR, not all that far from the places in the book... Pendleton, Corvallis, etc. well, not far with a car, rather far for walking/riding...
You might end up with him ruling the area and all of you being called Johny.and then Faeelin woke up all alone in the ruins, with an Eater gnawing his foot...
