Map Thread XVII

[Skallagrim]

I really like this map, but Russia and France seem way too weak to win.

You say this as if it's a bad thing.

A bit more seriously, though, there is that hint about the German system basing its plans on the assumption of British support, and that this will turn out to be the most imortant factor of the war. I tentatively take this to mean that Britain will be rather unhelpful, watching from the sidelines instead. Mind you, if this set-up is anything like OTL qua the various powers' strengths, the Franco-Russian alliance still loses. Especially since even an only nominally pro-German Britain still means no war loans for France. Which means France goes belly up for economic reasons at some point before the Germans get tired.

The most likely outcome would appear to be a bit of a sitzkrieg that the German system eventually wins but which is a drain on both sides. Britain comes out looking very much like a bunch op opportunistic bastards, but they'll be so much stronger by comparison that they can't be punished. The British Empire stays standing for quite a bit longer than in OTL.

(Of course, that's all based on my reading of one sentence in the write-up. @thisisspacejesus will have to confirm or deny the correctness of that reading.)

 

[Faeelin]

(Of course, that's all based on my reading of one sentence in the write-up. @thisisspacejesus will have to confirm or deny the correctness of that reading.)

Of course with a pod of 1770, there's a lot of room for better Russian economic development....

 

[Deblano]

More of this again, this time with better Russian sphere.

Holy shit what happened to Africa?

 

[thisisspacejesus]

You say this as if it's a bad thing.

A bit more seriously, though, there is that hint about the German system basing its plans on the assumption of British support, and that this will turn out to be the most imortant factor of the war. I tentatively take this to mean that Britain will be rather unhelpful, watching from the sidelines instead. Mind you, if this set-up is anything like OTL qua the various powers' strengths, the Franco-Russian alliance still loses. Especially since even an only nominally pro-German Britain still means no war loans for France. Which means France goes belly up for economic reasons at some point before the Germans get tired.

The most likely outcome would appear to be a bit of a sitzkrieg that the German system eventually wins but which is a drain on both sides. Britain comes out looking very much like a bunch op opportunistic bastards, but they'll be so much stronger by comparison that they can't be punished. The British Empire stays standing for quite a bit longer than in OTL.

Of course with a pod of 1770, there's a lot of room for better Russian economic development....

I like the way you guys have thought about this (since they're along the lines of what I had in mind), and I'm glad you liked the map.

Yes, Russia is more developed than OTL, and the Germans have a key weakness. The idea I had for this war is that the European fronts more or less stalemate until the Hapsburg and Ottoman Empires collapse (meaning the Germans lose two key allies). The French get some territory back (the three cities seized by the British on the northern coast) after some heated negotiation with the United Kingdom. Britain doesn't want a single power to totally dominate Continental Europe (i.e. Germany), and thus they cynically sell out the Germans despite some cooperation since the Metropolitan War mentioned in the writeup.

Meanwhile the British, Japanese, Koreans, and, to a lesser extent, the Americans fight militarily and diplomatically over the Philippines and influence in China.

French war loans more or less come from Quebec and the U.S., and are successful because Britain and France come to some degree of understanding over French losses in the North.

 

[Historyman 14]

Hello all. I'm generally a lurker here, but I wanted to see what you all thought of this map I made. The POD is somewhere between 1770 and 1810.

I like the way you guys have thought about this (since they're along the lines of what I had in mind), and I'm glad you liked the map.

Yes, Russia is more developed than OTL, and the Germans have a key weakness. The idea I had for this war is that the European fronts more or less stalemate until the Hapsburg and Ottoman Empires collapse (meaning the Germans lose two key allies). The French get some territory back (the three cities seized by the British on the northern coast) after some heated negotiation with the United Kingdom. Britain doesn't want a single power to totally dominate Continental Europe (i.e. Germany), and thus they cynically sell out the Germans despite some cooperation since the Metropolitan War mentioned in the writeup.

Meanwhile the British, Japanese, Koreans, and, to a lesser extent, the Americans fight militarily and diplomatically over the Philippines and influence in China.

French war loans more or less come from Quebec and the U.S., and are successful because Britain and France come to some degree of understanding over French losses in the North.

It seem more likely for the UK to stand with Germany due to France wanting Brittany. (And Paris would undoubted hate them more then the Germans. If you thought Alsace-Lorraine was bad...) Or at least have a German Victory/White Peace in Berlin's favor. Plus with the lack of British and American troops fighting for France and the Dutch in favor of Germany....

What's up with Argentina and Bolivia?

Is Brazil still a Empire?

How is America doing?

How did Korea modernized?

 

[thisisspacejesus]

-snip-

Brittany would be perceived as expendable by the British (it's only a protectorate), and in my mind there would be French loyalists agitating for a return to France in the country (Thus France would view reclaiming it as an easier task). French animosity would be more directed at Germany and the Netherlands since those countries seized more territory together than the Brits (check out the prewar map of Metropolitan France), as well as German manpower being the main occupying and fighting force during the Metropolitan War.
Also, remember that the Dutch need to expend troops to hold some of their new territories that they seized during the Metropolitan War. Germany also has a war on two fronts to fight, and Russia's economic/military position is better than OTL. Nonetheless, I can see the argument for the German bloc winning.

Argentina did very well for itself against Paraguay and Brazil. Later Bolivia and Argentina fought Chile two-on-one, which ended badly for the Chileans.

Brazil is indeed still an Empire.

America is not quite as militarily isolationist ITTL (see Taiwan), but doesn't have the political capital or armed forces to be a huge player in European politics. Nor does America really have an interest in getting involved in a European War. The U.S. generally meddles in the affairs of other countries in the Americas and messes with China. Commercial ties and European immigrants are what the Americans are most interested in at this point.

Korea is about five to ten years behind Japan in terms of modernizing. Japanese interest in Korea as an ally/junior partner, an earlier loss of Chinese influence, and some American investment and involvement allowed Korea to modernize.

 

[Valdore Javorsky]

(Warning: this isn’t a final concept)


Sometimes I think about just letting the World of Nightrise go full retard and hitting the big red WANK button and just let the literal magic happen... ^^’

 

[Historyman 14]

Brittany would be perceived as expendable by the British (it's only a protectorate), and in my mind there would be French loyalists agitating for a return to France in the country (Thus France would view reclaiming it as an easier task). French animosity would be more directed at Germany and the Netherlands since those countries seized more territory together than the Brits (check out the prewar map of Metropolitan France), as well as German manpower being the main occupying and fighting force during the Metropolitan War.

Also, remember that the Dutch need to expend troops to hold some of their new territories that they seized during the Metropolitan War. Germany also has a war on two fronts to fight, and Russia's economic/military position is better than OTL. Nonetheless, I can see the argument for the German bloc winning.

Argentina did very well for itself against Paraguay and Brazil. Later Bolivia and Argentina fought Chile two-on-one, which ended badly for the Chileans.

Brazil is indeed still an Empire.

America is not quite as militarily isolationist ITTL (see Taiwan), but doesn't have the political capital or armed forces to be a huge player in European politics. Nor does America really have an interest in getting involved in a European War. The U.S. generally meddles in the affairs of other countries in the Americas and messes with China. Commercial ties and European immigrants are what the Americans are most interested in at this point.

Korea is about five to ten years behind Japan in terms of modernizing. Japanese interest in Korea as an ally/junior partner, an earlier loss of Chinese influence, and some American investment and involvement allowed Korea to modernize.

The Germans would have the resources of the Congo to call on. Romania would fold quickly between Bulgaria and A-H. The Ottomans does not have the British helping any Arabs revolt, nor a Gallipoli. The Netherlands also have OTL Belgian steel mills, population and all that OTL Belgian coal. (So holding new territory won't really be a serious issue and they don't have anything in South America so its pretty much evens out.) And so the Germans don't have to swing in OTL Belgium while they have their pals the Dutch holding down the line


I see. What about Peru?

Was there a Civil War? Some Southern States are redraw.

How did Spain lose Cuba and the Philippines ALT?

And how did the USA get Taiwan in the first place?

 

[thisisspacejesus]

-snip-

The Germans do have the Congo, but naval warfare between them and the French and Russians (there's no British blockade) will help slow down the movement of supplies.

A-H borders Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Italy, and Russia. Bulgaria borders Romania, Greece, and Serbia. The problem for the entire German bloc is that there is a risk of invasion across many fronts.

The British do have an interest in weakening the Ottomans to expand their influence in Arabia. However, the main catalysts for Ottoman collapse are actually Egypt, Greece, and Russia.

The Netherlands do have Belgium, but there is a significant part of that population that is Francophone and opposed to Dutch interests. The Germans have a similar problem in ATL Alsace-Lorraine.

You are correct that the Germans swerving through Belgium will be less controversial, but the potential for partisans and the need to protect supply lines will have repercussions for the war effort.

Peru and Bolivia worked together to curtail Brazil's expansion plans. The Peru-Ecuador border was settled in a border war in the 1890's.

The Civil War ITTL was a shorter affair, mostly involving the Deep South. Since the POD is somewhere in the range of 1770 and 1810, the borders of the Southern states were influenced by a different set of events.

Cuba (and later, Puerto Rico) were sold by Spain to the U.S. after some not so subtle American threats of war.

The Philippines fought an independence war and finally achieved that independence in 1900. Currently the Philippines is aligned with the British.

The American seizure of Taiwan was one of the key catalysts for China's collapse into Civil War. Initially, the U.S. had a port concession there to go with Shanghai, but a riot from local Chinese (think a Taiwan-wide Boxer Rebellion) resulted in the Americans taking the entirety of the island and forcing the Chinese government to cede the territory. This loss caused the Imperial government to lose the last of its credibility after decades of weakness and humiliation, and various warlords rose up and began to fight for control over the country.

 

[FesteringSpore]

Holy shit what happened to Africa?

A surprising number of individual Africans survived the Apocalypse, but the ramshackle governments didn't.

 

[Selvetrica]

Personally I use Gimp as text is added as a layer so can be adjusted as needed.

Question; would there be enough horses in the early years- how long a breeding project to make the trails viable?

Well horses have a pregnancy rate a little longer than humans. From what I could find,(since horse population is not something a lot of people keep track of) Illinois has somewhere between 200,000 and 500,000 horses. So lets say there are about 300,000. Now assuming a growth rate between 1-6%, you could get anywhere from 800,000- 121 million. Now I will admit I dont know the most about horse growth and and am just using an exponential growth modifier. How hard is it to breed horses? I assume its not panda level haha. Yet I figure you could get enough. While resources are a bit scarce there would be plenty of land for horse breeding.

 

[B_Munro]

Well horses have a pregnancy rate a little longer than humans. From what I could find,(since horse population is not something a lot of people keep track of) Illinois has somewhere between 200,000 and 500,000 horses. So lets say there are about 300,000. Now assuming a growth rate between 1-6%, you could get anywhere from 800,000- 121 million. Now I will admit I dont know the most about horse growth and and am just using an exponential growth modifier. How hard is it to breed horses? I assume its not panda level haha. Yet I figure you could get enough. While resources are a bit scarce there would be plenty of land for horse breeding.

IIRC the Comanche were the only plains tribe that got really good at horse breeding, but then the native Americans of this TL have more time to get it right.

 

[Selvetrica]

IIRC the Comanche were the only plains tribe that got really good at horse breeding, but then the native Americans of this TL have more time to get it right.

Well its actually OTL Illinois from 2016 that is ISOT. So I figured with modern tech they would be able to breed enough in a 100 years. Especially with the demand since all infrastructure outside of the state is now gone.

 

[Historyman 14]

The Germans do have the Congo, but naval warfare between them and the French and Russians (there's no British blockade) will help slow down the movement of supplies.

A-H borders Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Italy, and Russia. Bulgaria borders Romania, Greece, and Serbia. The problem for the entire German bloc is that there is a risk of invasion across many fronts.

The British do have an interest in weakening the Ottomans to expand their influence in Arabia. However, the main catalysts for Ottoman collapse are actually Egypt, Greece, and Russia.

The Netherlands do have Belgium, but there is a significant part of that population that is Francophone and opposed to Dutch interests. The Germans have a similar problem in ATL Alsace-Lorraine.

You are correct that the Germans swerving through Belgium will be less controversial, but the potential for partisans and the need to protect supply lines will have repercussions for the war effort.

Peru and Bolivia worked together to curtail Brazil's expansion plans. The Peru-Ecuador border was settled in a border war in the 1890's.

The Civil War ITTL was a shorter affair, mostly involving the Deep South. Since the POD is somewhere in the range of 1770 and 1810, the borders of the Southern states were influenced by a different set of events.

Cuba (and later, Puerto Rico) were sold by Spain to the U.S. after some not so subtle American threats of war.

The Philippines fought an independence war and finally achieved that independence in 1900. Currently the Philippines is aligned with the British.

The American seizure of Taiwan was one of the key catalysts for China's collapse into Civil War. Initially, the U.S. had a port concession there to go with Shanghai, but a riot from local Chinese (think a Taiwan-wide Boxer Rebellion) resulted in the Americans taking the entirety of the island and forcing the Chinese government to cede the territory. This loss caused the Imperial government to lose the last of its credibility after decades of weakness and humiliation, and various warlords rose up and began to fight for control over the country.

The lack of a British blockade alone will be a lifesaver. (As well as a lack of dealing with the Royal Navy and Jutland.)

OTL, Serbia in fact almost surrendered to Austria Hungary in November of 1914. Have A-H pull it off, and knock the smaller states (Serbia and Romania.) to better focus on Russia, Greece, and Italy.

Do you have plans for a squeal?

Could play up the Anti-Freach feelings in America and the German factor in the USA as to have DC not give loans to France, or Russia, and support the German Empire. (OTL America's largest single ethnic group and should still be something close ATL.)

How did Canada fall under the USA? Successful Invasion of Quebec? (Lack of a Quebec Act.) Or a more successful ATL War of 1812?

Who is the main Kings and Queens of Europe?

Who's the President in the USA?

What is up with the 'more Black Americans live in Liberia then Native Africans' thing?

 

[Reepicheep]

Sometimes I think about just letting the World of Nightrise go full retard and hitting the big red WANK button and just let the literal magic happen... ^^’

You haven't done that already?

I kid, great work as usual!

 

[fashbasher]

Non-state actors in Age of Civs. First series are political organizations (pro-American, pro-American, pro-technology, Mennonite, pirates, pro-LGBT Indonesian Muslims, communists, Hindu-Buddhist hippies), second series are tongs (straddling the line between a guild and a criminal organization; many straddle the line between illegal and legal activity and are generally nonviolent).

 

[Redcoat]

Ideal map.

 

[Imperator Frank]

Care to give some explanation of sorts to your changes?

 

[Kodoku]

Here's a map based off of a Victoria II session I had a while back.

Don't know why, but I've found the country borders quite pleasing.

 

[Danube Mapper]

Here's a map based off of a Victoria II session I had a while back.

Don't know why, but I've found the country borders quite pleasing.

View attachment 364578

Brazil looks the same shade of green as Italy. Also, how did Germany get the Horn of Africa? But you are right. These borders are pleasing.