Earlier Soviet intervention in World War II?

[Shadow1080]

What if Soviet Union felt threatened more by Germany and Molotov-Ribentropp pact never occurs? As far I know, I remember hearing how British and French diplomats attempted an alliance with the Soviets before Germany invaded Poland, but that never worked out. But what if the diplomatic mission succeeded and the Soviet Union joined the war against Germany right in 1939 with Poland allowing Soviets to cross into their territory? How would've the war went for Soviet Union who just faced the Army Purge, would other countries intervene? And how would've affected the world and our modern age?

 

[The Byronic Hero]

They still need Poland's permission to cross it's borders. If that is even given, the refusal of the Soviets to leave will quickly anger the WAllies. Likely scenario: the WAllies watch the Nazis and Soviets exhaust each other.

 

[Richard V]

The Soviets wanted such an alliance, even offered to go to war over Czechoslovakia if Britain and France joined them.

The main problem was Britain and France expected the Germans and Soviets would fight each other anyways, and that it would be smart to wait to pick off the weakened survivor. Stalin then figured he would play the same game and get Germany to fight France and Britian first. He just didn’t figure Germany would win so easily.

We blame the rise of Nazi Germany on appeasement and lack of will when in reality their enemies were too busy backstabbing each other. I think this was one of the greatest myths of the 20th century.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Soviets wanted such an alliance, even offered to go to war over Czechoslovakia if Britain and France joined them.

The main problem was Britain and France expected the Germans and Soviets would fight eachother anyways, and that it would be smart to wait to pick off the weakened survivor. Stalin then figured he would play the same game and get Germany to fight France and Britian first. He just didn’t figure Germany would win so easily.

We blame the rise of Nazi Germany on appeasement when in reality Germany’s enemies were too busy back stabbing each other. I think this was one of the greatest myths of the 20th century.

No, the main problem is that Stalin was purging his army, so Britain and France had to chose between Poland, who also shared a border with Germany and had a medium sized army, or the Soviet Union, which was purging it's army into incompetence, and would *still* need permission from other nations to get into a position to attack Germany.

 

[Richard V]

No, the main problem is that Stalin was purging his army, so Britain and France had to chose between Poland, who also shared a border with Germany and had a medium sized army, or the Soviet Union, which was purging it's army into incompetence, and would *still* need permission from other nations to get into a position to attack Germany.

The Great Purge had nothing to do with this and few people fully appreciated its consequences at the time. The purged Red Army officer corps was full of inexperienced amateurs to begin with. In any case no one thought Poland had a more formidable army than the Soviet Union.

But yes Polish reluctance to allow Soviet military intervention in the defense of Czechoslovakia was a factor. Poland saw the Soviets as a greater threat than the Nazis and they had their own border dispute with Czechoslovakia. In fact both Poland and Hungary took part in the German invasion. Central European nations throwing eachother under the German bus was a serious problem.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Stalin would not get involved. He was happy for his enemies to fight each other.

The question is whether Hitler will dare act without an explicit guarantee of Soviet non-intervention. Also if and when Stalin takes advantage of the Allies-German war to start moving against the Baltic states, Finland, or Romania without explicit permission from Germany.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

@Richard V I get the impression you are whitewashing the Soviet Union. Many of the leaders purged had fought in World War 1 and the Russian Civil War. Yes, they were tried in secret, but the term "Great Purge" includes them, and the show trials caused trouble abroad for Stalin. This Wiki link talks about the Dewey Commision. This link mentions the Red Army purges, including the great officer Mikhail Tukhachevsky, in direct opposition to your disingenuous claim that "The purged Red Army officer corps was full of inexperienced amateurs to begin with."

Edit: And if the Red Army was full of "inexperienced amateurs" then the Polish Army was a better ally, considering many of its officers fought in World War 1 and the Polish-Russian War.

 

[Shadow1080]

Stalin would not get involved. He was happy for his enemies to fight each other.

The question is whether Hitler will dare act without an explicit guarantee of Soviet non-intervention. Also if and when Stalin takes advantage of the Allies-German war to start moving against the Baltic states, Finland, or Romania without explicit permission from Germany.

This is ALTERNATE HISTORY, lets say he does.

 

[Histor32]

The Soviets wanted such an alliance, even offered to go to war over Czechoslovakia if Britain and France joined them.

The main problem was Britain and France expected the Germans and Soviets would fight each other anyways, and that it would be smart to wait to pick off the weakened survivor. Stalin then figured he would play the same game and get Germany to fight France and Britian first. He just didn’t figure Germany would win so easily.

We blame the rise of Nazi Germany on appeasement and lack of will when in reality their enemies were too busy backstabbing each other. I think this was one of the greatest myths of the 20th century.

That sums up human history

 

[Richard V]

@Richard V I get the impression you are whitewashing the Soviet Union. Many of the leaders purged had fought in World War 1 and the Russian Civil War. Yes, they were tried in secret, but the term "Great Purge" includes them, and the show trials caused trouble abroad for Stalin. This Wiki link talks about the Dewey Commision. This link mentions the Red Army purges, including the great officer Mikhail Tukhachevsky, in direct opposition to your disingenuous claim that "The purged Red Army officer corps was full of inexperienced amateurs to begin with."

Edit: And if the Red Army was full of "inexperienced amateurs" then the Polish Army was a better ally, considering many of its officers fought in World War 1 and the Polish-Russian War.

A large number of those purged were political officers and those promoted for political reasons. The Red Army purge certainly negatively effected the officer corp in morale and experience. They would be more capable without the purge but at the same time one should not overstate the level of professionalism before the purge either. Tukhachevsky was an exceptionally talented leader who was also despised by rival generals that wanted him dead. All in all it was a dysfunctional institution purge or not.

Britain and France should have defended Czechslovakia and told Poland to get onboard. Polish interwar foreign policy was just well, no other way to say it but extremely dumb.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

Britain and France should have defended Czechslovakia and told Poland to get onboard. Polish interwar foreign policy was just well, no other way to say it but extremely dumb.

Yes, it was dumb. But Poland was simply fucked. All Poland could do was to chose the aggressor.
Letting the Soviets through to fight the Germans - yeah, great idea. That idea equals Soviet conquest and genocide by the Communists.
But Britain and France urged Poland to take this course as to keep Hitler busy in the East.

 

[Histor32]

A large number of those purged were political officers and those promoted for political reasons. The Red Army purge certainly negatively effected the officer corp in morale and experience. They would be more capable without the purge but at the same time one should not overstate the level of professionalism before the purge either. Tukhachevsky was an exceptionally talented leader who was also despised by rival generals that wanted him dead. All in all it was a dysfunctional institution purge or not.

Britain and France should have defended Czechslovakia and told Poland to get onboard. Polish interwar foreign policy was just well, no other way to say it but extremely dumb.

I would agree, I do not feel you are white washing the Soviets
History is messy and quite often Grey. Whilst many would agree that the soviet purges were moronic and detrimental, the fact remains that things were not roses before, combined with the very unstable method of infighting that was encouraged. couple that with:

• A Soviet Union that was trying to reassert its empire and power and reorganize the former empire into its own image, modernization at all costs - crap rural planning .. Self induced famines
• A soviet Union with a megalomaniac in charge that encouraged the power struggles to dived and rule
• An increasingly isolated Soviet Union by the world powers - feeding the xenophobia and everyone is against us mentality
• a newly created Poland and other nations that were hell bent on extracting every bit of revenge for several hundred years of being repressed and making itself look strong and powerful to everyone. seems many were happy to join in on Czechoslovakia, then on Poland...
• the after effects, social and political changes and ramifications there in of WW 1 in Central Europe and Eastern Europe
• Western Powers that by the 30's didn't want to fight a war and were more than happy to watch Germans and Russians knock each other out.
• then top that off with the depression and the turn to nationalism and fascism

yeah.. doesn't seem grey to me either

 

[Gudestein]

Yes, it was dumb. But Poland was simply fucked. All Poland could do was to chose the aggressor.
Letting the Soviets through to fight the Germans - yeah, great idea. That idea equals Soviet conquest and genocide by the Communists.
But Britain and France urged Poland to take this course as to keep Hitler busy in the East.

But what a choice.
I think we are making a mistake of blaming the purges on Stalins decision making. More likely the restructuring. From mobile under tukachevski to mass attack and then back to mobile after seeing the polish and French campaign.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

But what a choice.

Yup. Hence post-1989 alt-hist musings that in 1939 Poland should had given up on the Corridor and agreed to vassalisation by Berlin.

I think we are making a mistake of blaming the purges on Stalins decision making. More likely the restructuring. From mobile under tukachevski to mass attack and then back to mobile after seeing the polish and French campaign.

Huh?
The purges are 100% Stalin's decision ...

 

[Richard V]

Yes, it was dumb. But Poland was simply fucked. All Poland could do was to chose the aggressor.
Letting the Soviets through to fight the Germans - yeah, great idea. That idea equals Soviet conquest and genocide by the Communists.
But Britain and France urged Poland to take this course as to keep Hitler busy in the East.

I think that is a false choice. Poland needed to stand up for Czechoslovakia in 1938 and put their own forces on war footing. At the very least allow a few wings of Soviet bombers to deploy to Czechoslovakia. If the Poles and Soviets both took this seriously they could probably change conventional wisdom in Paris and London.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

I think that is a false choice. Poland needed to stand up for Czechoslovakia in 1938 and put their own forces on war footing.

Poland is simply too weak to stand up to Germany alone. France/UK have repeatedly done nothing about German remilitarisation. Every time Hitler pushed London/Paris gave in.

At the very least allow a few wings of Soviet bombers to deploy to Czechoslovakia. If the Poles and Soviets both took this seriously they could probably change conventional wisdom in Paris and London.

Are we talking AU or ASB?

 

[The Red]

The Soviets wanted such an alliance, even offered to go to war over Czechoslovakia if Britain and France joined them.

The main problem was Britain and France expected the Germans and Soviets would fight each other anyways, and that it would be smart to wait to pick off the weakened survivor. Stalin then figured he would play the same game and get Germany to fight France and Britian first. He just didn’t figure Germany would win so easily.

We blame the rise of Nazi Germany on appeasement and lack of will when in reality their enemies were too busy backstabbing each other. I think this was one of the greatest myths of the 20th century.

You make some excellent points but I disagree with you here. Pursuing appeasement over collective security was a conscious choice and whilst the failure of collective security is too often overlooked that doesn't mean that the appeasement policy shouldn't also be criticised.

 

[Gudestein]

Yup. Hence post-1989 alt-hist musings that in 1939 Poland should had given up on the Corridor and agreed to vassalisation by Berlin.


Huh?
The purges are 100% Stalin's decision ...

Purges were Stalins decision, but it was not the purges that led Stalin to appease Hitler post Munich. More likely the overall transition State of the red army.

 

[Gudestein]

You make some excellent points but I disagree with you here. Pursuing appeasement over collective security was a conscious choice and whilst the failure of collective security is too often overlooked that doesn't mean that the appeasement policy shouldn't also be criticised.

Are they not one and the same? At least totally interellated in Real-politics?
Looking at appeasement in isolation of abondoning collectice security being the common mistake?