The Kriegsmarine implements a first strike doctrine

trajen777

Banned
Good points. For point 2, my thought about a contract in the treaty for oil for a time applies. It should also be something that the UK is willing to trade. The treaty could also include rights of passage for logistics.

the only issue is if they depend upon a supply x and that could be cut at any time then that would not be good for Germany -- some way to guarantee supply -- maybe create a company that sales to Germany but has troops from both companies
 
is it necessary to train in skip bombing when most German bombers had a dive bombing capability? I don't think the British would be unduly worried about German aircraft training to sink ships, since they did that anyway - even if the Küstenfliegergruppe were mostly obsolete aircraft types. I don't think there would be much concern about the Ju 87 training for attacks on naval targets, since it only had a short range (the longer range version didn't become available until 1940 I think) and you have got rid of the Ju 87 aircraft carrier version and the aircraft carrier.
 
is it necessary to train in skip bombing when most German bombers had a dive bombing capability? I don't think the British would be unduly worried about German aircraft training to sink ships, since they did that anyway - even if the Küstenfliegergruppe were mostly obsolete aircraft types. I don't think there would be much concern about the Ju 87 training for attacks on naval targets, since it only had a short range (the longer range version didn't become available until 1940 I think) and you have got rid of the Ju 87 aircraft carrier version and the aircraft carrier.
Agreed, but best to quote the post you are referring to. Guess its some time ago?
 
And OTLhey sacrificed the Far East to protect the rest of the Empire. How far did the Germans ever make it into Egypt? Not very. They had all that OTL, but you ignore that Hitler has shown to be untrustworthy, and every time the Allies tried to buy him off he used to to get more advantages and cheat. Better to fight now. May I suggest moving it to the Writer's Forum if you actually go with Germany or her allies getting Cyprus, Gibraltar, or Malta, all very important naval bases? Might as well ask for Scapa Flow, for all the good it would do.
I just finished reading "Darkest hour", by Anthony McCarten before starting this TL. Its about the crisis in the cabinet which Churchill won. It is based on cabinet minutes and the OTL diaries. Under those circumstances Halifax and Chamberlain were ready to concede territory to preserve British independence.
Its summariced nicely here: https://storify.com/ukwarcabinet/a-compromise-peace-lord-halifax-in-may-1940
And in more detail about concessions to Italy here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1940_War_Cabinet_crisis#Halifax.27s_talks_with_the_Italians
It details: Suez, Gibraltar, Malta, Tunis, Dijbouti, Somaliland, Corfu or perhaps even Kenya or Uganda.
Its quoted from the biography of Halifax by Roberts which I unfortunately dont have. I guess a diary entry.

Now, put aside all the British patriotism and remember it is the man who IOTL suggested to discuss these terms, Halifax, backed by Chamberlain, that are in power. Churchill is out.
This, "May I suggest moving it to the Writer's Forum if you actually go with Germany or her allies getting Cyprus, Gibraltar, or Malta, all very important naval bases?" does you no credit. You failed to understand the situation as it was perceived (not the reality) IOTL, as well as the much more dire circumstances ITTL.

You might say that the Italians have not done anything, but they played their part. ITTL Britain and France is perceived as defeated by themselves, fearing for their lives, running out of food. The German and Italian demands are that they recognize defeat and the Germans want what is needed to assure they wont have to come and defeat them again. These are quite reasonable Desires for a victorious party, roblem is that it does entail the British giving up their unilateral control of World trade and hence the ability to blockade Germany and Europe. That is the med (for Italy) and it is a grip on the British sea lanes (Gibraltar and Dakar from the French).

It was quite a dissapointment, but as I read the "Darkest hour", I realized there was no way this TL would end up with the unmentionable sea mammal. Your policy would actually and it would be a fun alternative outcome.
 
@Gudestein no way in hell UK hands over Egypt or the Suez. Opening negotiations are just that. Facts on the ground don't reflect the the Axis absurd demands. And the RN still has enough destroyers to stop Sealion. Also how are they running out of food? U-boot blockade would take almost a year, even if Doenitz got his 300 subs.
 
@Gudestein no way in hell UK hands over Egypt or the Suez. Opening negotiations are just that. Facts on the ground don't reflect the the Axis absurd demands. And the RN still has enough destroyers to stop Sealion. Also how are they running out of food? U-boot blockade would take almost a year, even if Doenitz got his 300 subs.
Not out of food. Takes longer indeed. Running out. Since the beginning of the was the germans had 30 AMC's, three pocket battleships and the twins on raiding patrols.
You need to realize its no longer Churchill. He got his turn. Its Halifax and Chamberlain. If they were willing to concede territory IOTL, then how about this TL?
 
Not out of food. Takes longer indeed. Running out. Since the beginning of the was the germans had 30 AMC's, three pocket battleships and the twins on raiding patrols.
You need to realize its no longer Churchill. He got his turn. Its Halifax and Chamberlain. If they were willing to concede territory IOTL, then how about this TL?

Same bloke who promised to go to war if Germany attacked Poland? What about the Labour Party- the King requested a unity government, so they have to be assuaged. And what is the exact quote that they were willing to concede territory, rather than talk about conceding territory? Might as well ask for Scapa Flow as for Suez.
 
Same bloke who promised to go to war if Germany attacked Poland? What about the Labour Party- the King requested a unity government, so they have to be assuaged. And what is the exact quote that they were willing to concede territory, rather than talk about conceding territory? Might as well ask for Scapa Flow as for Suez.
If thats the content of the talks, its quite implicit. But you still miss the point of the psychology. Hitler may not be in Buckingham Palace, but it may only be a matter of time ITTL.
The King actually wanted Halifax. IOTL he didnt want to be PM with Churchill actually running the war. Now he is with Chamberlain to run the Peace.
 
Chapter 23, peace in western Europe
Chapter 23: Peace in (Western) Europe

A cease fire erupted in France and in the Atlantic on the 9th of June 1940 as Hitler, Mussolini, Halifax and Raynaud convene in the city of Rotterdam to begin peace negotiatons. From the negotiation place there are view to the Rhine and to the utter destruction that happened during terror bombing in the early days of the offensive. German Marinefährpramen are sailing on the Rhine and a large number is moored to the harbors. The impression this makes on Halifax in particular was one of despair.

Mussolini begins: Welcome to the protected city of Rotterdam. I am pleased that you realized the folly of your previous actions against Italy in Abyssinia and when Germany was trying to protect its citizens in Poland. What we seek here today is a grand solution for peace in western and southern Europe. France and Britain are distinguished world powers, but they have meddled in the affairs of other great powers which they should not. This must be prevented in order for peace to finally be achieved.

The final agreed upon terms included repayment of all war reparations following the treaty of Versailles totalling 22.89 billion gold marks at a rate of 2 million per year. The French would relinquish their control over Dakar, Alsace-Lorraine, and Briey-longwiey to Germany while the British would give up Gibraltar. Malta was conceded to Italy that would gain control over Palestine and the Sinai desert. The operation of the Suez canal would be a joint operation with both parties having authority to block the canal.

France would also be refrain from having fixed eastern defenses and an army of more than 300000 men.

Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway would remain under German protection with German basing rights, but with domestic home rule. These countries, as well as France were included in a custom union that were rather favorable to Germany.

Halifax took pride in the ability to preserve Egypt under British control and to divide Germany and Italy over the questions arising on Tunesia, Djibouty, Somaliland and Kenya.

As further concessions, the British were to guarantee the deliveries of 20 million tons of crude oil per year to Germany and 5 million to Italy at a fixed pre-war rate for 5 years. While Germany did not want its African colonies back, a further 10 million marks of payment were required for these concessions. No restrictions on sale of any kind to Germany by private British enterprises. Maximum costs of a number of categories were agreed upon to ensure no obstacles were encountered. A system was agreed upon under which Germany could substitute war reparations repayments for orders with British industries at triple the annual rate*.

POW’s would be released at a rate of 33% per year.

Gibraltar would be returned to Britain in a demilitarized state after 5 years.

Britain and France were also required to abolish all guarantees to other states in the Mediterranean area.



*Essentially, this arrangement made it possible to mobilize British and French industries for German armaments production over the coming years.

EDIT: Gibraltar returned after 5 years
 
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I know Grand Admiral Thrawn doesnt like this, but now the arguments and the scenario is posted for general feed-back. Let me know what you all think. I'll probably only be able to respond tomorrow.
 
If thats the content of the talks, its quite implicit. But you still miss the point of the psychology. Hitler may not be in Buckingham Palace, but it may only be a matter of time ITTL.
The King actually wanted Halifax. IOTL he didnt want to be PM with Churchill actually running the war. Now he is with Chamberlain to run the Peace.

The British will require that before they agree to such an outlandish peace treaty, and Germany cannot accomplish it. Your Wiki link doesn't explain if the Italians mentioned those terms, or Halifax. And who gets control of the Suez Canal?
 
I know Grand Admiral Thrawn doesnt like this, but now the arguments and the scenario is posted for general feed-back. Let me know what you all think. I'll probably only be able to respond tomorrow.

The only real problem I have with the treaty is Gibraltar. Everything else seems reasonable. I think Hitler would have to be dictating terms from Buckingham to give up Gibraltar. The link does include Gibraltar, but it seems...odd. The British have held Gibraltar for 400 years, through worse trials. Regardless, good chapter, and continue.

Incidentally, did France receive any other limitations? Artillery, tank, naval limitations?
 
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I predict that Britain and France will attack Germany and Italy again as soon as they have their POWs back. Any peace with the Axis Powers most like only be temporary.
 
I predict that Britain and France will attack Germany and Italy again as soon as they have their POWs back.

The UK may well have a go at Germany when the Russia campaign starts (And it will, short of Hitler dying) but not France, they're a broken nation. Limited army, and they've lost the Briey-Longweiy industrial area, and they have heavy reparations.
 

nbcman

Donor
Is there not a typo in the amount of reparations? 22.89 billion gold marks at 2 million per year would take 11,000+ years to pay off.

Additionally, how is the UK going to procure and ship 25 million tons of oil to Germany and Italy - not to mention how will Germany and Italy come up with enough foreign exchange to pay for the oil even at pre-war prices? That’s about 175 million 1939 US Dollars of oil / 175 million barrels.

EDIT: References for oil price and barrels per ton
http://www.onlineconversion.com/forum/forum_1058197476.htm

http://chartsbin.com/view/oau
 
Is there not a typo in the amount of reparations? 22.89 billion gold marks at 2 million per year would take 11,000+ years to pay off.

Additionally, how is the UK going to procure and ship 25 million tons of oil to Germany and Italy - not to mention how will Germany and Italy come up with enough foreign exchange to pay for the oil even at pre-war prices? That’s about 175 million 1939 US Dollars of oil / 175 million barrels.

I think the idea is to permanently cripple Britain and France.
 

nbcman

Donor
I think the idea is to permanently cripple Britain and France.
2 million RM is only about 180,000 pounds (1939 comparison). That’s not going to cripple either country.

EDIT: Germany imposed the following costs on France for the cost of occupation:

Occupation Costs of Armed Forces, Paid by France: In Reichsmarks

Year 1940: 1759 RM million.

Year 1941: 5087 RM million.

Year 1942: 7872 RM million.

Year 1943: 9798 RM million.
A portion of 2 million RM or even 2 billion RM per year (shared with the UK) would be a bargain for France as compared to OTL.
 
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trajen777

Banned
Chapter 23: Peace in (Western) Europe

A cease fire erupted in France and in the Atlantic on the 9th of June 1940 as Hitler, Mussolini, Halifax and Raynaud convene in the city of Rotterdam to begin peace negotiatons. From the negotiation place there are view to the Rhine and to the utter destruction that happened during terror bombing in the early days of the offensive. German Marinefährpramen are sailing on the Rhine and a large number is moored to the harbors. The impression this makes on Halifax in particular was one of despair.

Mussolini begins: Welcome to the protected city of Rotterdam. I am pleased that you realized the folly of your previous actions against Italy in Abyssinia and when Germany was trying to protect its citizens in Poland. What we seek here today is a grand solution for peace in western and southern Europe. France and Britain are distinguished world powers, but they have meddled in the affairs of other great powers which they should not. This must be prevented in order for peace to finally be achieved.

The final agreed upon terms included repayment of all war reparations following the treaty of Versailles totalling 22.89 billion gold marks at a rate of 2 million per year. The French would relinquish their control over Dakar, Alsace-Lorraine, and Briey-longwiey to Germany while the British would give up Gibraltar. Malta was conceded to Italy that would gain control over Palestine and the Sinai desert. The operation of the Suez canal would be a joint operation with both parties having authority to block the canal.

France would also be refrain from having fixed eastern defenses and an army of more than 300000 men.

Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway would remain under German protection with German basing rights, but with domestic home rule. These countries, as well as France were included in a custom union that were rather favorable to Germany.

Halifax took pride in the ability to preserve Egypt under British control and to divide Germany and Italy over the questions arising on Tunesia, Djibouty, Somaliland and Kenya.

As further concessions, the British were to guarantee the deliveries of 20 million tons of crude oil per year to Germany and 5 million to Italy at a fixed pre-war rate for 5 years. While Germany did not want its African colonies back, a further 10 million marks of payment were required for these concessions. No restrictions on sale of any kind to Germany by private British enterprises. Maximum costs of a number of categories were agreed upon to ensure no obstacles were encountered. A system was agreed upon under which Germany could substitute war reparations repayments for orders with British industries at triple the annual rate*.

POW’s would be released at a rate of 33% per year.

Britain and France were also required to abolish all guarantees to other states in the Mediterranean area.



*Essentially, this arrangement made it possible to mobilize British and French industries for German armaments production over the coming years.


Good Job. Yep i see this is pretty accurate for France. I think the war debt form Vers. was a good point. The European market makes sense. GB losing Gibraltar and Malta would be acceptable to GB. With Malta lost the Med is cut in half. GB would have to give up something, and the loss of this is better then Iraq for them. The oil shipments can be cut at any time with a new war for GB, esp at pre war prices so profitable for GB (I would have done it at - 10 % or more).
 
Chapter 23: Peace in (Western) Europe

A cease fire erupted in France and in the Atlantic on the 9th of June 1940 as Hitler, Mussolini, Halifax and Raynaud convene in the city of Rotterdam to begin peace negotiatons. From the negotiation place there are view to the Rhine and to the utter destruction that happened during terror bombing in the early days of the offensive. German Marinefährpramen are sailing on the Rhine and a large number is moored to the harbors. The impression this makes on Halifax in particular was one of despair..

Sorry there was - at most - 1 MFP operational at that time - or did I miss the bit where it was said that these were to be mass produced early? Somewhere else it was mentioned that the shipyards were to be used to produce S and R Boats but these were made of wood and took up no shipyard capacity.

By the way the British were expecting massed German air raids as soon as the war started, and the air raid sirens were sounded as soon as war was declared - it was a surprise when nothing happened.

Germany (or at least the Nazis) did want is African & Pacific colonies back - this was the last bit of the Versailles treaty that remained.
 
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