Decades of Darkness

I'd imagine New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and parts of southern Hudson (depending on how far south the Hudson/LI border is; the North America map has it in the Hudson Highlands, but the world map has it up almost near Albany) being the third big regional group in the New England "mainland".
The scale on the world map may be a little off. Niagara state was formed with its border at the OTL counties of Cayuga, Onondaga, Cortland and western Broome (the Cortland-Chenango border extended due south), and with the capital at Geneva. Long Island state consists of Long Island, New York City, Staten Island, and the counties of Bronx, Westchester and Rockland.

More broadly, yes, it makes sense of New York, New Jersey, Connecticut (or most of it) and parts of southern Hudson to be drawn into a southern, mostly urbanised region.

Picturing the suburban infill between New York and Hartford, I can see Connecticut being far more densely populated, with suburban sprawl ballooning out from the nation's financial/trade capital (with the Erie Canal, New York's still likely to develop as such, even if it's not the Center of the Universe) and its political capital. TTL's New Jersey, basically, or New England's Essex. On a similar note, I can also see New York and Hartford being bitter rivals, especially in sports, much like New York and Boston in OTL. (A New York/Hartford rivalry doesn't preclude a New York/Boston rivalry from existing, mind. It could be three-way between them, even.) And given that Connecticut and western Massachusetts are pretty closely connected even in OTL, with Hartford and Springfield being seen almost as twin cities, western Massachusetts is likely to have even more affinity with Connecticut/Hartford ITTL, especially as Springfield grows, Hartford's sprawl starts to spill over the state line, and government workers start buying cottages in the Berkshires. It may be seen as "western New England" initially, but by the mid-20th century it's likely grown increasingly connected to the south. Either way, there's likely to be a pretty big western Massachusetts statehood movement, much like how OTL's New York has seen countless proposals to split it into two states.
That analysis makes sense. I'd add that while there is likely to be a big western Massachusetts statehood movement, I'm not sure whether it would get enough traction to be approved. The ATL split of New York state was a combination of the OTL statehood split sentiments, but with the disproportionate weight of New York state in ATL New England politics meaning that there was strong federal support for the split as well. (New York City more or less decided the presidency, due to the high population and the electoral college giving the overall state high weight, and New York City's higher population outvoting upstate New Yorkers.) The federal sentiment to split Massachusetts would be much weaker.

I'd imagine "southern New England" (New York/Hartford) being identified with the nation's elite, both political and economic, while "western New England" (Niagara, Hudson, and Vermont) is a stronghold of rural politics. Eastern New England would be the swing region; Boston and Providence would have a lot in common with New York and Hartford, but further north, you'd get a nation more resembling the rural west. Politically, this could go either way. On one hand, you could get a situation similar to OTL, where the rural areas are more conservative and the cities more liberal, with rural voters viewing the cities as decadent and city voters viewing the countryside as backwards. This happens a lot in OTL, throughout the world, so there is precedent. On the other hand, I remember Vermont and New Hampshire retaining socialist governments opposed to Hartford during the vitalist era, implying that there is a progressive streak in rural New England both economically and socially, while the cities could be identified with upper-class conservatism.
Rural areas in New England are in general more conservative, though it depends on the issue. The reason that Vermont and New Hampshire were socialist in the Vitalist era was that they were the strongholds of the old Federalists (conservatives), but that the Federalists were discredited due to supporting Mullins into the presidency, so they switched to the Socialists as the only viable alternative. Their Socialism had a rather values-driven streak, with a focus on philanthropy, helping out people in need, and so forth.

Again, not without precedent for New England; OTL's Vermont and western Massachusetts are probably more left-wing than the Boston suburbs nowadays, and New Hampshire has long been associated with libertarianism. It also wouldn't be the first flip from OTL's politics I've seen ITTL; I remember one update suggesting that the Catholics were identified with Prohibition, while the Protestants were against it. (Still trying to wrap my head around how that one works, given how much of OTL's American temperance movement was intertwined with anti-Catholic nativist politics. That said, there were some Prohibitionist sentiments in OTL among Catholics.) The different Prohibition movement could be a clue for political leanings; the cities and later suburbs where Catholics are presumably concentrated could have strong streaks of moralism and social reform, while the mostly Protestant countryside (especially farmers who grow the crops used to make alcohol) could lean towards "keeping big government out of your liquor cabinet" libertarianism. That said, a lot can change between 1933 and even, say, 1973, let alone 2013.
Political affiliations have certainly changed from their OTL equivalents in some respects. That said, TTL still has Catholic areas being more anti-Prohibition; that was touched on in chapter #109 (footnote 4).

I don't know whether I ever mentioned this, but even from looking at a map, I'd guess that all the big cities in the NE (except Boston) will be smaller than IOTL. The border cuts through economic connections that exist IOTL, not to mention the danger of war.
This varies depending on what point in time they're being compared to. For the first few decades, New England had a higher population than in OTL, due to a higher proportion of European immigration to North America going there rather than the *USA, and because some New Englanders stayed home ITTL rather than migrating west as they did in OTL, since that would have been into parts of the *USA. Later on, lower birth rates (due to higher urbanisation) and greater willingness of some continental European migrants to go to the *USA means that they decline compared to OTL.
 
What's the cultural relationship between the major players of the Silent War like by the 50's? Is there much consumption of say German or Russian music/literature/film in either those two powers or in the other "civilised" nations like New England or Australia? Unlike OTLs Cold War the cultural differences between the major powers is probably quite a bit less, if only thanks to everyone being essentially market capitalist/consumer societies. Or do tensions still spoil this?
 
This varies depending on what point in time they're being compared to. For the first few decades, New England had a higher population than in OTL, due to a higher proportion of European immigration to North America going there rather than the *USA, and because some New Englanders stayed home ITTL rather than migrating west as they did in OTL, since that would have been into parts of the *USA. Later on, lower birth rates (due to higher urbanisation) and greater willingness of some continental European migrants to go to the *USA means that they decline compared to OTL.

Yes, I meant later on.
 
What's the cultural relationship between the major players of the Silent War like by the 50's? Is there much consumption of say German or Russian music/literature/film in either those two powers or in the other "civilised" nations like New England or Australia? Unlike OTLs Cold War the cultural differences between the major powers is probably quite a bit less, if only thanks to everyone being essentially market capitalist/consumer societies. Or do tensions still spoil this?
The economic differences between the powers are less than in OTL, but the language barriers are still quite significant. Everyday New Englanders and Australians aren't any notably more multilingual than they are in OTL. *Americans are more multilingual, but only in Spanish and (to a lesser degree) Portuguese, which doesn't help much in terms of consumption of German or Russian media and literature. Germans and Russians are more inclined to be multilingual than anglophones, so there is still some transmission of literature, music and film there. Also, sporting relationships do exist between the various powers, with the notable exception of Australia and *America.

On the whole, there is nothing like the overwhelming dominance of American culture around the world, partly because English doesn't have the same global dominance, and partly because of a sense of nationalism. There's more of the film and musical equivalents of, say, Indian and Chinese film industries - very large local markets, but much less transmission of films and music to other parts of the world. Literature is not quite as siloed, because translations of the written word are more accepted, but even then, there's still a significant sense of separation.

BTW do you think it would be possible to replicate this timeline in EU4 or Victoria 2?
Possibly, though I haven't played either game. (I played EU1, many years ago, and never had much of an interest in the sequels). From memory, someone was considering a Victoria 1 scenario a long time ago, but was having difficulty managing the indentured aspects of the *American economy, since that assumed that slaves could only work in agriculture. I don't know if the same problem exists in Vicky 2.
 
The economic differences between the powers are less than in OTL, but the language barriers are still quite significant. Everyday New Englanders and Australians aren't any notably more multilingual than they are in OTL. *Americans are more multilingual, but only in Spanish and (to a lesser degree) Portuguese, which doesn't help much in terms of consumption of German or Russian media and literature. Germans and Russians are more inclined to be multilingual than anglophones, so there is still some transmission of literature, music and film there. Also, sporting relationships do exist between the various powers, with the notable exception of Australia and *America.

On the whole, there is nothing like the overwhelming dominance of American culture around the world, partly because English doesn't have the same global dominance, and partly because of a sense of nationalism. There's more of the film and musical equivalents of, say, Indian and Chinese film industries - very large local markets, but much less transmission of films and music to other parts of the world. Literature is not quite as siloed, because translations of the written word are more accepted, but even then, there's still a significant sense of separation

Would there be a strong connection between Australia and New England culturally speaking then? Quite different societies in some ways but with a lot in common including of course language, as well as certain Bad Things in their recent pasts... bit of an odd couple situation.
 
The economic differences between the powers are less than in OTL, but the language barriers are still quite significant. Everyday New Englanders and Australians aren't any notably more multilingual than they are in OTL. *Americans are more multilingual, but only in Spanish and (to a lesser degree) Portuguese, which doesn't help much in terms of consumption of German or Russian media and literature. Germans and Russians are more inclined to be multilingual than anglophones, so there is still some transmission of literature, music and film there. Also, sporting relationships do exist between the various powers, with the notable exception of Australia and *America.

On the whole, there is nothing like the overwhelming dominance of American culture around the world, partly because English doesn't have the same global dominance, and partly because of a sense of nationalism. There's more of the film and musical equivalents of, say, Indian and Chinese film industries - very large local markets, but much less transmission of films and music to other parts of the world. Literature is not quite as siloed, because translations of the written word are more accepted, but even then, there's still a significant sense of separation.


Possibly, though I haven't played either game. (I played EU1, many years ago, and never had much of an interest in the sequels). From memory, someone was considering a Victoria 1 scenario a long time ago, but was having difficulty managing the indentured aspects of the *American economy, since that assumed that slaves could only work in agriculture. I don't know if the same problem exists in Vicky 2.


Yeah, you would have to mod Vicky II to allow slaves to work in factories. And to allow them to enslave non-accepted cultures (some mods do this already IIRC) And you would have to put in event chains or cores to allow the US to take over most of the Americas without running into constant Containment Wars due to infamy. TBH you would need some heavy railroading/event chains to get Russia and Germany to achieve their TTL growth from TTL's 1836 regularly, too. It is all doable but wouldn't be easy.
 
Yeah, you would have to mod Vicky II to allow slaves to work in factories. And to allow them to enslave non-accepted cultures (some mods do this already IIRC) And you would have to put in event chains or cores to allow the US to take over most of the Americas without running into constant Containment Wars due to infamy. TBH you would need some heavy railroading/event chains to get Russia and Germany to achieve their TTL growth from TTL's 1836 regularly, too. It is all doable but wouldn't be easy.


I would so so, play that!
 
I feel that you should put a table of content.
Do you mean the new threadmark feature which is added here, or a table of contents to the text version on the DoD website?

I do plan to add threadmarks at some point, it's just that it's a time-consuming exercise and my online time has been spent elsewhere at the moment. It took a while for me to get the threadmarks up for my more active TLs.
 
Just a quick question here:

What has made Russia so strong ITTL? I tried looking in the word file of the TL for any mention of Russian early reform such as successful Decembrist revolution or anything similar but I couldn't find anything. Since I think an early modernization and industrialization would be required to achieve such a strong, bloated and liberalized Russia.
 
Just a quick question here:

What has made Russia so strong ITTL? I tried looking in the word file of the TL for any mention of Russian early reform such as successful Decembrist revolution or anything similar but I couldn't find anything. Since I think an early modernization and industrialization would be required to achieve such a strong, bloated and liberalized Russia.
I think it was a Decembrist-esque Revolution after Russia was beaten by Germany in the Second Napoleonic Wars.
 
Just a quick question here:

What has made Russia so strong ITTL? I tried looking in the word file of the TL for any mention of Russian early reform such as successful Decembrist revolution or anything similar but I couldn't find anything. Since I think an early modernization and industrialization would be required to achieve such a strong, bloated and liberalized Russia.

That the triple monarchy was willing to pay the price to get it on their side and the Entente was not.
 
What has made Russia so strong ITTL? I tried looking in the word file of the TL for any mention of Russian early reform such as successful Decembrist revolution or anything similar but I couldn't find anything. Since I think an early modernization and industrialization would be required to achieve such a strong, bloated and liberalized Russia.
A complicated sequence of events, but essentially started because in TTL, the equivalent of the (very slight) liberalising/modernising tendencies of the 1860s and 1870s - emancipation of the serfs, beginning of railways, formation of first local (not federal) Dumas etc - was not interrupted by the assassination of OTL Alexander II. Instead, the defeat of the Second Napoleonic Wars led to an attempted revolution and the creation of a Duma with some power. From there, things continued, with the Duma gradually gaining more power, and various strands of modernisation developing over time. (If you're searching in the rtf document, the critical moments of transition were addressed in post #84c and #86).

The other big difference was that Russia was fortunate enough to survive the great demographic disasters of the twentieth century - WW1, the famines and purges which followed, and WW2 - so it is demographically in a much stronger position. There have been bloody wars and deaths in TTL's Russia, of course - Second Napoleonic Wars, Great War, and others - but the net demographic effects have been much more positive.

Russia is also only liberal for a given value of liberal; by OTL liberal standards they are liberal in some areas but not in others (indirect elections, for instance).
 
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@Jared thanks to Trump the next few years are going to be peak season for the anti-American literature market, in particular in Aus. Ideal time to publish DoD.
 
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