DBWI: No De-Britishification

[Spielzeug]

As we know at the end of the Second Weltkrieg, the Union of Britain was split into the Kingdom of England, the Kingdom of Wales and the Kingdom of Scotland by the victorious German Empire. After that Germany began an initiative of 'de-Britishification' in England to rid the country of a British mentality and assert an Anglo-Saxon identity (blaming everything that 'went wrong' such as the Empire on the Normans) in order to pacify the English and prevent them from looking to the Canadian government in exile.

Decades later, how successful were the Germans in wiping out British identity and what would be the effects on England had the Germans not done this?

OOC: Based on KR, Germany wins the Second Weltkrieg against France and succeeds in invading the Union of Britain

 

[skaven]

As we know at the end of the Second Weltkrieg, the Union of Britain was split into the Kingdom of England, the Kingdom of Wales and the Kingdom of Scotland by the victorious German Empire. After that Germany began an initiative of 'de-Britishification' in England to rid the country of a British mentality and assert an Anglo-Saxon identity (blaming everything that 'went wrong' such as the Empire on the Normans) in order to pacify the English and prevent them from looking to the Canadian government in exile.

Decades later, how successful were the Germans in wiping out British identity and what would be the effects on England had the Germans not done this?

OOC: Based on KR, Germany wins the Second Weltkrieg against France and succeeds in invading the Union of Britain

Well given that neutral, American polling shows that more people in Scotland and Wales identify as British now than before the end of the war, not well. It's important to remember that when comapred to the Congregationalist government, which was comparativelly liberal, the thuggish authoritarianism of the German regime was a great ordeal, and in fact drew together various communities which had been divided by their views on Syndicalism in general and the conduct of the war in particular. It's only the continued occupation by the Heer, which is a massive continual drain on the Kaiser's finance, that has prevented the BRA from achieving victory. The fact that for the last decade the Germans haven't been able to find anyone willing to serve as puppet PM for the Kingdoms of Scotland or England, and have had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for Hohenzollzern's to act as kings, given how few of them last more than half a decade before being blown up, should be an indication of their success.

 

[Spielzeug]

Well given that neutral, American polling shows that more people in Scotland and Wales identify as British now than before the end of the war, not well. It's important to remember that when comapred to the Congregationalist government, which was comparativelly liberal, the thuggish authoritarianism of the German regime was a great ordeal, and in fact drew together various communities which had been divided by their views on Syndicalism in general and the conduct of the war in particular. It's only the continued occupation by the Heer, which is a massive continual drain on the Kaiser's finance, that has prevented the BRA from achieving victory. The fact that for the last decade the Germans haven't been able to find anyone willing to serve as puppet PM for the Kingdoms of Scotland or England, and have had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for Hohenzollzern's to act as kings, given how few of them last more than half a decade before being blown up, should be an indication of their success.

In fairness American 'neutrality' is highly questionable, they've always been Entente-leaning since the First Weltkrieg, and Canada has been caught attempting to support pro-Canadian factions within the BRA. It's also not just the Heer occupying Britain at the moment, the Austrian army and the Irish army (who of course know first hand the danger of a united British state) have played a large part in the fight against the BRA guerrillas as well.

Britain would descend into civil war if the occupying armies ever pulled out, the BRA can't even decide if they're syndicalist or not and what their position on Canada and the British Empire is.

 

[skaven]

In fairness American 'neutrality' is highly questionable, they've always been Entente-leaning since the First Weltkrieg, and Canada has been caught attempting to support pro-Canadian factions within the BRA. It's also not just the Heer occupying Britain at the moment, the Austrian army and the Irish army (who of course know first hand the danger of a united British state) have played a large part in the fight against the BRA guerrillas as well.

Britain would descend into civil war if the occupying armies ever pulled out, the BRA can't even decide if they're syndicalist or not and what their position on Canada and the British Empire is.

This has always been asserted, but given that the current situation involves mass murders at least once a month by some terrified convict thinking a granny looked at him funny I'd take my chances. It'd be the correct choice for the Reich too, given that it's either a civil war here or in Germany, given how ruinously expensive and unpopular the occupation is. It is ironic to see the techniques once applied to Birmingham and Cardiff now inflicted on peace protestors in Bremen and Berlin, though.

And as for the Austrian and Irish "armies", it's been obvious for years that they are no more than a fiction to make the occupation look less monomanicaly an attempt by the Kaiser to work through his issues with daddy dearest getting his head blown of in '87. That or both countries have been recruiting exclusivelly from the Ruhr for the last decade.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Up the BRA. Britain one and indivisible ruled directly from London!

 

[Thomas1195]

Whatever happen, it is obvious that Germany had been totally successful in turning Britain into a total s***hole which would not pose significant threat to their dominance in Europe again.

 

[skaven]

Whatever happen, it is obvious that Germany had been totally successful in turning Britain into a total s***hole which would not pose significant threat to their dominance in Europe again.

And of course that stategy has been so beneficial for Germany. Please ignore the fact there hasn't been elections for the past 30 years, that they spend over half their annual budget occupying Europe, and another quater occupying their own cities, or that almost every month they shoot hundreds of protestors. Yup, everythings coming out roses for Germany.

 

[Thomas1195]

I have heard that Germany also dumped tons of heroin into Britain for decades in order to degenerate its population.

But after 1990, Germany had shifted its strategy towards "educational reforms", which aimed to vilify the English from the primary school level in Scotland and Wales.

 

[Clandango]

But after 1990, Germany had shifted its strategy towards "educational reforms", which aimed to vilify the English from the primary school level in Scotland and Wales.

It did not entirely work, though. May be in part due to how portions of England were given to Scotland and Wales. Mostly regions that had similarities to each of those kingdoms, but a lot of the propoganda had the unfotrunate side effects of mentioning how the English peasentry were mostly people crushed under the feet of Saxons, Hanoverians, Danes, Normans, etc. Nothing quite hurts a case by arguing that the people persecuting you had come from the country now crushing the land once more, with the Celts being shoved off to the side. They feel it, two. The Germans cutting off the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh from overseas trade, their industries based upon English production crumbling, trade wrecked...

 

[The Red]

Well given that neutral, American polling shows that more people in Scotland and Wales identify as British now than before the end of the war, not well.

Not to be pedantic but whilst Britishness is arguably at a higher level than it ever has been, the actual nature of British nationalism has changed to the degree that one could argue that de-Britishfication has 'worked'. The BRA have had to tell an alternative story of Britain to those involved in BRITAID and other schemes, overt or otherwise. An oppressed island, hungry and poor, yearning for the freedom and unity that all brother peoples deserve. This doesn't help the Germans of course, it's far more inspiring for the lad in Glasgow or Liverpool or Swansea to fight for freedom and equality than for the glory of an empire, but they have forced the British identity to evolve through the strife they've caused.

It seems obvious that they would have been better off if they hadn't been so ambitious. The imperialist national sentiments echoed by those of the August criminals, and eventually by the desperate remnants of the failed Syndicalist experiment have been put to rest, not by any positive German action, but by the thuggish misrule of themselves and their puppets. If Britain had been given a similar peace along the lines of what the Russians received, it's likely that Britain would remain an international actor, possibly not unlike England in the late seventeenth century. No longer the world's superpower, but an energetic trader with an aristocratic establishment. The old British nationalism would continue to fester, the industrial strife that gave rise to the Syndicalist revolution would return and possibly take on an alternative nationalist character. The discovery of North Sea Oil and the immediate seizure by Wintershall, the closure of the Scottish pits in favour of the Saar, it wouldn't be hard to see these causing a rift between England and Scotland if they were done by a legitimate London government rather than an Edinburgh puppet.

 

[skaven]

Not to be pedantic but whilst Britishness is arguably at a higher level than it ever has been, the actual nature of British nationalism has changed to the degree that one could argue that de-Britishfication has 'worked'. The BRA have had to tell an alternative story of Britain to those involved in BRITAID and other schemes, overt or otherwise. An oppressed island, hungry and poor, yearning for the freedom and unity that all brother peoples deserve. This doesn't help the Germans of course, it's far more inspiring for the lad in Glasgow or Liverpool or Swansea to fight for freedom and equality than for the glory of an empire, but they have forced the British identity to evolve through the strife they've caused.

That is very true of course, we mustn't forget how even the Congregationalists spoke of an Empire, if only an "Empire of Equals". When you compare that to the proclomations of even the Maximalist wing of the BRA today, the children of Mosely, who remain scarily popular, even they couch their language in the brotherhood of man in general and britons in particular, rather than Moseley's flights of fancy about a Socialist Raj.

Actually, Moseley himself is an interesting study in this change, as despite the latter day hagiography from The Movement following his wings success in the assasination of the Kaiser and the August PM, he was an incorrigible supremecist for almost his entire life, despite his willingess to take arms from the Barhat Commune. We still probably would have won if he had been leader though.

 

[Von Tyrconnell]

BRA terrorist propaganda abounds in this thread. Germans smuggling heroin into England, massacring and occupying their own cities, not holding elections (the English still seem to think it's the 1910s and Ludendorff is in power!), is there any other crazy conspiracy theories that haven't been said yet? Foreign news must really be restricted in Britain if people actually believe this.

And as for the Austrian and Irish "armies", it's been obvious for years that they are no more than a fiction to make the occupation look less monomanicaly an attempt by the Kaiser to work through his issues with daddy dearest getting his head blown of in '87. That or both countries have been recruiting exclusivelly from the Ruhr for the last decade.

It's definitely not a fiction, the Irish Army has contributed a lot to the occupation, last week 6 Irish soldiers were blown up in Bristol. Maybe the Irish, Hungarian, Croatian etc. languages all sound like German to Britons?

The Germans cutting off the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh from overseas trade, their industries based upon English production crumbling, trade wrecked...

I see the English mentality hasn't changed much. Ireland hasn't been dependent on English production since the 1920s thanks to our inclusion in the European common market and we are quite happy being part of Mitteleuropa, the Germans have done far more for Ireland than the British Empire ever did. As for the Welsh and Scottish economies, that's less the eeeevul Germans (tm) and more the economic result of a persistent insurgency that wants to destroy the country.

I will admit though that Germany could have handled things a lot better, and that the occupation really isn't worth it and the best thing for us to do would be to pull out and let Britain fall apart without a common enemy to unite them. The whole island is so devastated that they won't be a threat again for decades anyway.

 

[skaven]

BRA terrorist propaganda abounds in this thread. Germans smuggling heroin into England, massacring and occupying their own cities, not holding elections (the English still seem to think it's the 1910s and Ludendorff is in power!), is there any other crazy conspiracy theories that haven't been said yet? Foreign news must really be restricted in Britain if people actually believe this.

((Just dismissing previous posts as "propaganda" is considered poor form, for the record))

We get the news just fine in Britain, the German version through the only authorised channel and the controlled press, and the truth through the Voice of Britain. Funny thing, neither of them have mentioned any election taking place beyond the occasional local one since the kaiser Willy got his head blown off in '87. And the Party of German Unity just happened to win 95% of the vote was just a conicidence, I'm sure. The ongoing attempts of the Irish to pretend they haven't shackled themselves to a barbaric, sinking corpse is hiarious, though. And it's hard to deny that there is an occupation of Germany by Germans when they have a manditory curfew, and broadcast their massacres both at home and abroad as object lessons, even in places as far flung as London.

It's definitely not a fiction, the Irish Army has contributed a lot to the occupation, last week 6 Irish soldiers were blown up in Bristol. Maybe the Irish, Hungarian, Croatian etc. languages all sound like German to Britons?

Yes, "Irish" soldiers, drinking German beer in a German bar in the German command sector. Although I will admit the Irish have sent some troops over to die for the Kaiser willingly, like the tame dogs you are, which is more than I can say for the Hungarians, or the Croats, or any of the other poor astards who were rewarded for their sacrifices in two Weltkriegs with puppet regimes and the evicerations of their economy to feed, however temporarily, the German heartlands.

I see the English mentality hasn't changed much. Ireland hasn't been dependent on English production since the 1920s thanks to our inclusion in the European common market and we are quite happy being part of Mitteleuropa, the Germans have done far more for Ireland than the British Empire ever did. As for the Welsh and Scottish economies, that's less the eeeevul Germans (tm) and more the economic result of a persistent insurgency that wants to destroy the country.

I will admit though that Germany could have handled things a lot better, and that the occupation really isn't worth it and the best thing for us to do would be to pull out and let Britain fall apart without a common enemy to unite them. The whole island is so devastated that they won't be a threat again for decades anyway.

And here comes the familiar refrain that it's the English mentality to blame. Never mind that from Bevan and Buchanan onwards the supreme command of the BRA has been led in large part by Welsh and Scotsmen. Never mind that the BRA counts the Ebbw Vale and Clydeside divisions as some of its strongest and most active fighters. No, just speak of the English. That makes it so much easier to pretend that like Esau, Ireland has whored itself for a mess of potage to a succession of madmen and monsters in Berlin. And what has it received in return? Oh for sure industry and jobs haven't been exported to Germany wholesale, as happened on the mainland and on the continent. But every year the economy contracts, and every time a sector of the Irish economy starts to look like it might compete with that of Germany it coincidentally shuts down or moves to the Saar, as we saw most recently with the micro-computing boom, smothered in its cradle to protect German industry, at incalculable cost not just to Ireland, but to all humanity.

But rather than face what it has done, Ireland has retreated into a fantasia of its smug self righteousness. Have fun in there, for it will not last forever.

 

[FBKampfer]

Frankly the concept hasn't really worked for anyone other than the Romans. And that was mostly because the offer was "help us and you get free stuff".

Which arguably could have worked for the Germans too. German citizenship for honorable service to the empire. Here's your plot of land and your pension. But extend that concept to the children of such Ausländische servicemen. I mean it's not like Poland and Norway and the Ukraine don't have laughable amounts of unused space.

Ironically that might help weaken the national identities of other occupied territories to have a bunch of French and Englanders settling down. Change the culture, change the land.

Though they never pursued a policy of "de-nationalization" it's worked reasonably well with the Romanian and the Hungarian troops in the East and North territories, and I hear the Italians have had pretty good success with the Frogs levied from their occupation zone. Of course the French never have been fond of non-french people, so they probably make pretty fair occupation troops no matter where you drop them.



And of course we in the United States have had our own fun trying to keep South America and Iraq in line. Without the Brazilians, we'd be royally boned. But the general consensus is that if we pulled out, the place would devolve into a massive hell hole of civil war and secretarian violence.

The same thing would probably happen to any UK-reborn. You'd have Irishmen shooting at the Welsh and the Britons, and the Scotts shooting at the Brits, and the Welsh shooting at the Irish and the Brits, and the Brits shooting at everyone else and any other Brit they don't particularly like.

 

[Iron Sun]

It's downright maddening that Dublin sends Irish boys to die in Britain while the Holy Ulster Liberation Army continues its campaign of terror against "Papists" here in Ireland.

 

[Roland Traveler]

Maybe Canada wouldn't be so pissed all the time if Germany not only gave them back Britain, but didn't try to destroy the heartland of the Empire. The entire purpose of the Empire since the Peace with Honof has been to return the Windsors to London. Breaking the U.K. up and putting various Hohenzollerns on their thrones was a stupid idea if Germany entertained any ideas of influence in the Americas postwar.

((Just dismissing previous posts as "propaganda" is considered poor form, for the record))

OOC: It should be plainly obvious that Hearn's character believes it's propaganda, not that it is.

We get the news just fine in Britain, the German version through the only authorised channel and the controlled press, and the truth through the Voice of Britain. Funny thing, neither of them have mentioned any election taking place beyond the occasional local one since the kaiser Willy got his head blown off in '87. And the Party of German Unity just happened to win 95% of the vote was just a conicidence, I'm sure. The ongoing attempts of the Irish to pretend they haven't shackled themselves to a barbaric, sinking corpse is hiarious, though. And it's hard to deny that there is an occupation of Germany by Germans when they have a manditory curfew, and broadcast their massacres both at home and abroad as object lessons, even in places as far flung as London.

Barbaric is a bit much. Yes, the Germans may be big believers in "Spare the rod, spoil the child," but can you blame them against a nation that cost them nearly 3 million dead over two wars? Besides, it's not as if the British themselves have been helping. Ever since the late 40's, they've been killing German soldiers and bringing it down on themselves. Maybe the Germans would give them some breathing room if they actually behaved themselves.

Yes, "Irish" soldiers, drinking German beer in a German bar in the German command sector. Although I will admit the Irish have sent some troops over to die for the Kaiser willingly, like the tame dogs you are, which is more than I can say for the Hungarians, or the Croats, or any of the other poor astards who were rewarded for their sacrifices in two Weltkriegs with puppet regimes and the evicerations of their economy to feed, however temporarily, the German heartlands.

You know it's not unusual for the Irish and German troops to be friendly, right? It's been well-documented for years that Irish and German troops visit each other's quarters frequently, and in large numbers.

And here comes the familiar refrain that it's the English mentality to blame. Never mind that from Bevan and Buchanan onwards the supreme command of the BRA has been led in large part by Welsh and Scotsmen. Never mind that the BRA counts the Ebbw Vale and Clydeside divisions as some of its strongest and most active fighters. No, just speak of the English. That makes it so much easier to pretend that like Esau, Ireland has whored itself for a mess of potage to a succession of madmen and monsters in Berlin. And what has it received in return? Oh for sure industry and jobs haven't been exported to Germany wholesale, as happened on the mainland and on the continent. But every year the economy contracts, and every time a sector of the Irish economy starts to look like it might compete with that of Germany it coincidentally shuts down or moves to the Saar, as we saw most recently with the micro-computing boom, smothered in its cradle to protect German industry, at incalculable cost not just to Ireland, but to all humanity.

But rather than face what it has done, Ireland has retreated into a fantasia of its smug self righteousness. Have fun in there, for it will not last forever.

This is patently false. Ireland's economy has expanded since 1980. Sure, at a slow rate and mainly in farming and industries related to it, but expansion is expansion. Never mind this blithering about Germany crushing any economy that grows, it encourages them. The Ukraine's agricultural sector is thriving, as are Baltic fishing and Belorussian logging sectors. Austria and Switzerland both make killings thanks to tourism, and Hungary is second only to Germany in manufacturing inside of Mittleeuropa (even if it's only light manufacturing). The only nations that Germany hasn't let grow are France, the Dutch, and the traitorous Flemish-Wallonians, and with good reason. France started two world wars thanks to being sore losers over a war they started, while the Low Countries spurned German benevolence in preference for a Syndicalist revolt. It's no surprise that Germany continues to maintain control over their vital industries, they don't want to risk another world war.

 

[Thomas1195]

Since 1998, a popular Scottish liberal activist named David Steel had managed to trigger a new wave of British nationalism across Britain and make German policy become counter-productive.

This liberal nationalist movement eventually turned into a full-scale revolution in 2006 with American support. This resulted in a new British Republic in 2006, with Steel, leader of the Liberal Party, becoming President until his retirement last year. He was then succeeded by his own protege Nick Clegg.

The British economy has experienced extraordinary economic growth since its independence, which averages 10% per annum, with manufacturing and other technology sectors rising 15% each year. They also became a leader in life sciences, renewable, automation and computer technology. The world hasn't seen such a miracle since the case of Japan during the 1970s. Learning the lessons from the Asian Tigers, the new British Liberal government actively intervened in the economy to promote industrial development and prevent capital to flow into asset speculation (while German economy since 2000 has relied on asset bubbles rather than manufacturing to keep itself afloat). In 2012, they also joined the Anglo Union which consisted of the US, Canada, NZ and Australia.

 

[skaven]

Snip

((Wait what? This directly conflicts with everything else that has been established.))

Barbaric is a bit much. Yes, the Germans may be big believers in "Spare the rod, spoil the child," but can you blame them against a nation that cost them nearly 3 million dead over two wars? Besides, it's not as if the British themselves have been helping. Ever since the late 40's, they've been killing German soldiers and bringing it down on themselves. Maybe the Germans would give them some breathing room if they actually behaved themselves.

Because how dare people resist a regime that responded to strikes with machine gun fire, and to petitions of grievance with a van in the night and the short drop. And let us not forget their experiments with straight up ethnic cleansing that they attempted in the Highlands and in Kent, before it became clear the cost was far greater than any gain. And as for "breathing room" that was attempted in the Truce of '95, to which the Germans responded by launching a campaign of assasinations against those leaders who wouldn't come out of the shadows, and of the arrest of those who did, gutting the moderate wing of the BRA embodied by Smith and Brown. The British quagmire is one of German making, have no doubt.

This is patently false. Ireland's economy has expanded since 1980. Sure, at a slow rate and mainly in farming and industries related to it, but expansion is expansion. Never mind this blithering about Germany crushing any economy that grows, it encourages them. The Ukraine's agricultural sector is thriving, as are Baltic fishing and Belorussian logging sectors. Austria and Switzerland both make killings thanks to tourism, and Hungary is second only to Germany in manufacturing inside of Mittleeuropa (even if it's only light manufacturing). The only nations that Germany hasn't let grow are France, the Dutch, and the traitorous Flemish-Wallonians, and with good reason. France started two world wars thanks to being sore losers over a war they started, while the Low Countries spurned German benevolence in preference for a Syndicalist revolt. It's no surprise that Germany continues to maintain control over their vital industries, they don't want to risk another world war.

Oh yes, the thriving Miteleuropan economy. Funny how it's only one sector of any nation that's allowed to flourish, and it's always one that acts only to funnel raw materials to Germany. Now if one was suspicious, or had a basic grasp of economics, one could link that to the fact that standards of living have been steadily declining on the continent for decades, ad has been plummeting in the last few deacdes, even now in Germany itself. But that would be ridiculous. Just look at the smiling faces on the infomercials. Trust your government.

 

[skaven]

It's downright maddening that Dublin sends Irish boys to die in Britain while the Holy Ulster Liberation Army continues its campaign of terror against "Papists" here in Ireland.

And they should take note from that how difficult it is to defeat even so comparatively small an insurgency, rather than dive on in to a war with a people many times larger than their own.

 

[Thomas1195]

((Wait what? This directly conflicts with everything else that has been established.))

Well, I have corrected some of the dates. I don't think that the above comments mention the 21st century