WI: Marie, Duchess of Burgundy Doesn't Die in 1482

Kellan Sullivan · Sep 16, 2017

As the title says, say the duchess of Burgundy and queen of the Romans, doesn't die in 1482. Say she doesn't go riding that day, and thus avoids being thrown.

She may even have a surviving second son - although her paternal obstetric record suggests that she got lucky with her two surviving kids OTL (she being an only child, and her father being the only surviving one out of three), so I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Are there any changes from OTL? How might her policies differ from her Yorkist stepmother's? She was reportedly very in love with Maximilian and he with her, so would she be allowed any say in imperial matters when the time comes?

Jan Olbracht · Sep 16, 2017

Maybe Max would not suffer from depression with his beloved wife alive? IOTL he travelled with coffin (for himself) later in life.
If Max and Mary have another son he could be elected to Imperial throne if Philip dies early like IOTL.

Janprimus · Sep 16, 2017

Maximilian, the chivalrous saviour of Mary, that is the Burgundian Lands really needed Habsburg and Imperial help against France. There also is the cute anecdote, that Mary thought Maximilian Dutch and he thought here German. If they would have been blessed with a second son, either named Frederick/Friedrich or Charles, he may very well end up as the Austria-Burgundy heir. Especially if the other power couple, the Catholic monarchs, Isabella of Castille and Ferdinand of Aragon, gets involved.

Kellan Sullivan · Sep 16, 2017

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that Margaret of York, who was ruling the Netherlands for Philippe as regent (Maximilian was originally appointed, but the Burgundians were no great fans of his, so forced him to abdicate IIRC), tended to view things (esp. those pertaining to England) through a rather personal lens - see Perkin Warbeck and several other things. Would Marie necessarily see things the same way - assuming that things in England go roughly as OTL (Richard of Gloucester deposes Edward V, Tudor deposes Richard, Bosworth, Simnel, Warbeck, etc) - or would she be able to differentiate between the personal and the political (Margaret's anti-Tudor sentiment resulted in England being icier towards a traditional trading partner)? Maximilian certainly thought she (Marie) was intelligent and more importantly, wise, as far as politics was concerned (although this could be something he realized in hindsight). So, how would a surviving Marie affect Margaret's level of influence?

Kellan Sullivan · Sep 18, 2017

What if Marie and Max had a second daughter (more or less the mid-1480s)? Events in England go roughly as OTL, Henry wins Bosworth, marries Elizabeth of York, Prince Arthur follows soon after (roughly same time as this second daughter). Would Henry STILL be looking to Spain for a wife for his son and heir? Or would he try to neutralize Burgundy-the Empire by engaging Arthur to this girl?

BlueFlowwer · Sep 18, 2017

Now I'm tempted to write a family tree......

BlueFlowwer · Sep 18, 2017

Possibility of Philip marrying Anne of Brittany?

Kellan Sullivan · Sep 18, 2017

BlueFlowwer said:
Now I'm tempted to write a family tree......

Feel free

BlueFlowwer said:
Possibility of Philip marrying Anne of Brittany?

Can't see the French being TOO impressed with such a match. Then again, the imperial electors might decide to Hell with the Habsburgs if such a marriage goes through. They own more French land (Burgundy+Brittany) than German, let's elect someone else. And that's assuming that things don't distract the Habsburgs from sending aid to Brittany as OTL - since the king of France isn't going to be happy about such a marriage.

Mikestone8 · Sep 18, 2017

Would Henry Tudor even get a look in?

Both Max and Mary were descended from Philippa of Lancaster, eldest daughter of John of Gaunt and full sister of Henry IV. So they have a pretty strong claim to be heirs of the House of Lancaster.

If 1483 finds both of them still alive, and Max not preoccupied with a long struggle to secure guardianship of hi son, could we see him landing troops in Kent to support Buckingham's rebellion - and if successful claiming the throne for himself?

Istr that at some point he made a deal with Perkin Warbeck, making himself and Philip heirs should Warbeck die w/o issue.

Kellan Sullivan · Sep 18, 2017

Mikestone8 said:
Would Henry Tudor even get a look in?

Both Max and Mary were descended from Philippa of Lancaster, eldest daughter of John of Gaunt and full sister of Henry IV. So they have a pretty strong claim to be heirs of the House of Lancaster.

If 1483 finds both of them still alive, and Max not preoccupied with a long struggle to secure guardianship of hi son, could we see him landing troops in Kent to support Buckingham's rebellion - and if successful claiming the throne for himself?

Istr that at some point he made a deal with Perkin Warbeck, making himself and Philip heirs should Warbeck die w/o issue.

Who knows. I have often thought Tudor lucky in the sense that anyone else with a half-decent Lancastrian claim was otherwise occupied in 1483-1485 (or dead).

I don't know how his stepmother-in-law would feel about it though - she was closer to Richard III than Edward (they'd had a falling out over his execution of Clarence and his non-payment of her dowry installments) - and she had a good deal of influence on Marie. Who in turn, had a strong influence on Max. So IDK.

As to Perkin Warbeck's rights, I could definitely see Max making use of propaganda that HIS son is a Lancastrian who's blood is bluer than the Tudors' is or ever was. The dowager duchess (as a York) might still be interested in unseating Tudor, but prefer a York to do it. Although, how much of a role she'd play in Burgundy's governance with her stepdaughter alive and healthy is anyone's guess.

I wonder if Brussels/Mechelen/Ghent would not succeed Vienna as imperial capital here. I know Philippe le Bel was much attached to Burgundy and Karl V too, but neither of them had time to oversee a permanent move of the capital to the Netherlands. Max has time and reason.

BlueFlowwer · Sep 18, 2017

If Mary's survival butterflies away Bosworth, does Richard III suceed in the double portugese marriages?

Mikestone8 · Sep 18, 2017

BlueFlowwer said:
If Mary's survival butterflies away Bosworth, does Richard III suceed in the double portugese marriages?

No reason for Bosworth to be prevented unless Max decides to go for the English crown himself - which case Richard probably just loses another way. Margaret couldn't save him OTL, and presumably still can't. .

Kellan Sullivan · Sep 19, 2017

The reason I think that an alt-Bosworth might still happen was that everyone with a half decent LEGITIMATE claim to the throne (Portugal, Castile-Aragon, Austria, Burgundy) was busy, or a child or not interested. Here, even with Marie surviving and Max NOT being caught up in a struggle in the Netherlands, I'm not sure there's much HE can do. Margaret's not gonna support a Lancastrian claimant (even her own son-in-law) against her brother; plus, Tudor could claim some sort of seniority in his descent from John of Gaunt, and he was English (Welsh actually, but still). How can Max claim it? He's not senior heir (that's Tudor/Portugal), nor does he have anymore a connection than being the current king's stepniece's husband (Tudor was at least the last Lancastrian king's nephew and married to the eldest daughter of Edward IV). If Max had married Liz or been betrothed to her, maybe he'd still consider it. But I think it would be a stretch for him to claim England.

Besides, any (Ricardian) Yorkist asked on 21 August 1485 would've probably thought that Tudor was a gag-claimant. Edward IV regarded him as an irritation, Margaret of York commented that "one does not learn how to rule a country in taverns and whorehouses."

Mikestone8 · Sep 19, 2017

Kellan Sullivan said:
The reason I think that an alt-Bosworth might still happen was that everyone with a half decent LEGITIMATE claim to the throne (Portugal, Castile-Aragon, Austria, Burgundy) was busy, or a child or not interested. Here, even with Marie surviving and Max NOT being caught up in a struggle in the Netherlands, I'm not sure there's much HE can do. Margaret's not gonna support a Lancastrian claimant (even her own son-in-law) against her brother; plus, Tudor could claim some sort of seniority in his descent from John of Gaunt, and he was English (Welsh actually, but still). How can Max claim it? He's not senior heir (that's Tudor/Portugal), nor does he have anymore a connection than being the current king's stepniece's husband (Tudor was at least the last Lancastrian king's nephew and married to the eldest daughter of Edward IV). If Max had married Liz or been betrothed to her, maybe he'd still consider it. But I think it would be a stretch for him to claim England.

Besides, any (Ricardian) Yorkist asked on 21 August 1485 would've probably thought that Tudor was a gag-claimant. Edward IV regarded him as an irritation, Margaret of York commented that "one does not learn how to rule a country in taverns and whorehouses."

Max is ruling the Netherlands, so has a base right opposite England. And Margaret would be powerless to stop him if he chose to make a grab. As for "right" he could claim by conquest if he won, just as Henry VII did OTL.

BlueFlowwer · Sep 19, 2017

Wouldn't Max and Marie prevent Henry from becoming a threath by making a deal with France in exchange? It's in Max's best interest to protect Richard, a french inclined candidate is bad for Burgundy.

Kellan Sullivan · Sep 20, 2017

Max is ruling the Netherlands, so has a base right opposite England. And Margaret would be powerless to stop him if he chose to make a grab. As for "right" he could claim by conquest if he won, just as Henry VII did OTL.
Marie is ruling, not Max. But I hear where you're gojng. However, Max needs a decent reason why he's going after Richard's crown, more than "you know what, I'd like to be king of England".

Wouldn't Max and Marie prevent Henry from becoming a threath by making a deal with France in exchange? It's in Max's best interest to protect Richard, a french inclined candidate is bad for Burgundy.
Agreed. The Trinity of Max-Marie-Margaret might decide to draw Tudor's forces away through bluffing a war with France. Thus, buying Richard some time. IDK in what shape the Burgundian navy was at the time, but maybe they can play watchdog to French ships attempting to slip out.

Mikestone8 · Sep 20, 2017

Kellan Sullivan said:
Marie is ruling, not Max. But I hear where you're gojng. However, Max needs a decent reason why he's going after Richard's crown, more than "you know what, I'd like to be king of England".

If he harbour's doubts about Richard's long term survival, he might go for it to forestall Tudor. After all, HT's only claim is through a Royal bastard, and if the Beauforts are regarded as illegitimate then the descendants of Philippa of Lancaster have a better claim. And Marie is also descended fro PoL, so has just as much interest in the English succession as her husband.

I had in mind that in 1483 there were risings against Richard in Kent and Essex, so creating an ideal opportunity for a Burgundian intervention.

BlueFlowwer · Sep 20, 2017

Wouldn't it be in the interest to keep the anglo-burgundian alliance with Richard??? Besides Maximilian can boast all he want about his lancastrian blood, the english arent gonna accept either a burgundian duchess or a austrian archduke as their sovreign. Tudor was atleast english. Max and Marie will have their hands full with the low countries and the hapsburg inheritance, why would they want to add england to their realms.

Mikestone8 · Sep 20, 2017

BlueFlowwer said:
Wouldn't it be in the interest to keep the anglo-burgundian alliance with Richard??? Besides Maximilian can boast all he want about his lancastrian blood, the english arent gonna accept either a burgundian duchess or a austrian archduke as their sovreign. Tudor was atleast english. Max and Marie will have their hands full with the low countries and the hapsburg inheritance, why would they want to add england to their realms.

Burgundy doesn't yet have the Spanish inheritance. That match is still a decade or so in the future. And to many Englishmen, a Welshman (or even a fellow-countryman from north of the Trent) was hardly less foreign than a Burgundian.

BlueFlowwer · Sep 20, 2017

Henry Tudor had english parents, he could claim the throne much easier than Max, a complete FOREIGN RULER from AUSTRIA. WHY would Max want to claim england rather than support Richard, who is his ALLY against France???

Like hell France is gonna permit Max and Marie to grab england too. Anne of France is gonna prevent Max from taking england, if for nothing else to prevent him from becoming a even bigger threath. Spain and Portugal is fighting the moors, they can't help Max.