Confederate by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss

[Emote Control]

I can't see the Confederacy winning, of course -- but if they had, they would certainly have kept slavery. It was right in their constitution:

No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

 

[rvbomally]

I have no faith that this will be anything short of garbage, a) because D&D have left no confidence in me that they can tell compelling, deep stories post-season 4, and b) because "what if The Confederacy wins and slavery sticks around for 150 years" is garbage alternate history and would be roundly mocked on this site if anyone tried to post it as a TL. Call me when we get a show about the Confederate Socialist States of America.

I'm not really concerned about the premise, because if it's an interesting story, I'll forgive implausibility. Sometimes I think this site has a stick up its ass about making sure everything is "plausible," to the point that interesting settings are rejected because the outcome is unlikely. My concern is that the story would just be bad by any standard, and doesn't make sense within its own internal logic.

 

[A Piece of History]

I can't see the Confederacy winning, of course -- but if they had, they would certainly have kept slavery. It was right in their constitution:

No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

Many people thought the 18th Amendment of the United States Constitution was great too, until it became clear that Prohibition wasn't working. I think if there is enough internal pressure from within the CSA, slavery could've been abolished. Plus, not everyone in the Confederacy believed they were breaking away from the Union, merely because of slavery. Their state governments were a different story, but I think the people could've pressured their CS government to abolish slavery maybe five to ten years after the Civil War. Keep in mind that Brazil kept slavery until 1888. If they couldn't push slavery past the turn of the century, what makes the CSA any different?

 

[Emote Control]

Many people thought the 18th Amendment of the United States Constitution was great too, until it became clear that Prohibition wasn't working. I think if there is enough internal pressure from within the CSA, slavery could've been abolished. Plus, not everyone in the Confederacy believed they were breaking away from the Union, merely because of slavery. Their state governments were a different story, but I think the people could've pressured their CS government to abolish slavery maybe five to ten years after the Civil War. Keep in mind that Brazil kept slavery until 1888. If they couldn't push slavery past the turn of the century, what makes the CSA any different?

You have got to be kidding me. The people of the South knew perfectly well what they were fighting for. In addition, the very first thing they did after losing the Civil War was form an anti-black terror group, the KKK. They found the time to pass laws that kept blacks from having anything like equality, flat out banned them from voting, these were around for another hundred years until the Johnson Administration -- and then the whole South switched parties.

I personally have had people tell me that blacks "don't have the culture to compete" with whites -- and I live in New York!

 

[rvbomally]

You have got to be kidding me. The people of the South knew perfectly well what they were fighting for. In addition, the very first thing they did after losing the Civil War was form an anti-black terror group, the KKK. They found the time to pass laws that kept blacks from having anything like equality, flat out banned them from voting, these were around for another hundred years until the Johnson Administration -- and then the whole South switched parties.

I personally have had people tell me that blacks "don't have the culture to compete" with whites -- and I live in New York!

Being a racist does not equate with supporting the continuation of slavery beyond the point where it is reasonable. Plenty of people in the 19th century were undeniably white supremacists, who believed that blacks should go back to Africa or were incapable of integrating into a white American society, but didn't support the continuation of slavery for some reason or the other. A victorious Confederacy would almost certainly pass something akin to Jim Crow laws, and be akin to OTL Apartheid South Africa, but eventually international pressure would lead to a Confederate abolition movement motivated by pragmatism. They don't have to like black people to free them, if they think freeing them would mean better foreign relations.

 

[A Piece of History]

You have got to be kidding me. The people of the South knew perfectly well what they were fighting for. In addition, the very first thing they did after losing the Civil War was form an anti-black terror group, the KKK. They found the time to pass laws that kept blacks from having anything like equality, flat out banned them from voting, these were around for another hundred years until the Johnson Administration -- and then the whole South switched parties.

I personally have had people tell me that blacks "don't have the culture to compete" with whites -- and I live in New York!

So you expect me to believe that EVERYONE in the Confederacy wanted to leave because of slavery? People in the South had other gripes with the federal government than slavery. Some of them were worried that Northern manufacturing was exploiting the south and thereby dominating the Federal government, for example.

(FYI: I am not denying that slavery was the cause of the American Civil War. I am merely stating the people of the South had other problems with the federal government than slavery)

 

[jeckl]

I would like it if they shows the CSA to be alt-North Korea. Run down, shitty living conditions, most whites live in slums and Blacks in ghettos with only a few rich and powerful people actually 'benefiting' from the nation.

 

[Thomas Johnson]

Being a racist does not equate with supporting the continuation of slavery beyond the point where it is reasonable. Plenty of people in the 19th century were undeniably white supremacists, who believed that blacks should go back to Africa or were incapable of integrating into a white American society, but didn't support the continuation of slavery for some reason or the other. A victorious Confederacy would almost certainly pass something akin to Jim Crow laws, and be akin to OTL Apartheid South Africa, but eventually international pressure would lead to a Confederate abolition movement motivated by pragmatism. They don't have to like black people to free them, if they think freeing them would mean better foreign relations.

They had slavery enshrined in their constitution.
Article I Section 9(4)
No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.[14]
.
In all likelihood, a successfully confederacy would have stumbled along for a couple decades, losing a war to Spain in the meantime. Their economy would have been wrecked by the Boll Weevil. They would enter the first world war a shambling agrarian wreck, little better than Russia and with much less room for error. Surviving that long would be possible. To the present would require a minor miracle.

 

[rvbomally]

They had slavery enshrined in their constitution.
Article I Section 9(4)
No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.[14]

You don't need to remind me. I've always found this line of reasoning absurd, as if the Confederacy would be a static society as the world moved on around them. I'm not saying the Confederacy wasn't founded to maintain slavery, or that the institution was enshrined in its constitution. I'm arguing that to say the Confederacy would maintain slavery even after it is no longer viable is a ridiculous notion. It's not like reform is impossible. The People's Republic of China was founded on communist principles, but it reformed in the face of necessity. Eventually, the most ardent proponents of slavery would die away, newer generations would free their slaves because it's criticized by foreign press and it's no longer economically viable, and eventually they'd just ban the institution in exchange for a trade deal with Britain or something. The CSA wasn't some single-minded collective consciousness dedicated to the sole purpose of enslaving black people.
.

In all likelihood, a successfully confederacy would have stumbled along for a couple decades, losing a war to Spain in the meantime. Their economy would have been wrecked by the Boll Weevil. They would enter the first world war a shambling agrarian wreck, little better than Russia and with much less room for error. Surviving that long would be possible. To the present would require a minor miracle.

I doubt the Confederacy would enter an alt-Great War. Since they would be considered a pariah for a long time, they wouldn't have any allies in Europe to fight for.

 

[A Piece of History]

I would like it if they shows the CSA to be alt-North Korea. Run down, shitty living conditions, most whites live in slums and Blacks in ghettos with only a few rich and powerful people actually 'benefiting' from the nation.

That would be a awesome idea for an alternate history story. Although, I doubt it will exist in this show because it doesn't look like they thought it very well.

 

[rvbomally]

I would like it if they shows the CSA to be alt-North Korea. Run down, shitty living conditions, most whites live in slums and Blacks in ghettos with only a few rich and powerful people actually 'benefiting' from the nation.

I've been considering a DPRK-like communist Confederacy facing off against a pseudo-fascist and openly racist Union that is acting like the Confederacy normally does in these settings. Because I don't believe in giving people someone to root for.

 

[Thomas Johnson]

You don't need to remind me. I've always found this line of reasoning absurd, as if the Confederacy would be a static society as the world moved on around them. I'm not saying the Confederacy wasn't founded to maintain slavery, or that the institution was enshrined in its constitution. I'm arguing that to say the Confederacy would maintain slavery even after it is no longer viable is a ridiculous notion. It's not like reform is impossible. The People's Republic of China was founded on communist principles, but it reformed in the face of necessity. Eventually, the most ardent proponents of slavery would die away, newer generations would free their slaves because it's criticized by foreign press and it's no longer economically viable, and eventually they'd just ban the institution in exchange for a trade deal with Britain or something. The CSA wasn't some single-minded collective consciousness dedicated to the sole purpose of enslaving black people.
.


I doubt the Confederacy would enter an alt-Great War. Since they would be considered a pariah for a long time, they wouldn't have any allies in Europe to fight for.

I'm suspicious of the idea that they would change just because they should. Plenty of nations didn't, and a surviving confederacy seems very likely to.

 

[rvbomally]

I'm suspicious of the idea that they would change just because they should. Plenty of nations didn't, and a surviving confederacy seems very likely to.

Do you have any examples of nations maintaining slavery even after it was no longer economically viable and turned nations into pariahs?

 

[Thomas Johnson]

Do you have any examples of nations maintaining slavery even after it was no longer economically viable and turned nations into pariahs?

Russia maintained itself in an agrarian shambles until the first world war.

 

[rvbomally]

Russia maintained itself in an agrarian shambles until the first world war.

Russia was also an absolute monarchy, abolished serfdom in 1861, and wasn't considered an international pariah for being a Tsarist autocracy. The Confederacy, while obviously not having universal franchise, would still be a democratic state that would more readily adapt to growing popular sentiment. Again, there would have to be a country-wide conspiracy to keep the black man not only down, but as literal property, for generation after generation despite the fact that external pressure would encourage abolition and a desire to compete with the North would encourage the adoption of more industrial technology. A lot of people rightly point out that the Confederacy would find itself isolated because of slavery in the late 19th century, but the idea that the Confederacy couldn't change is absurd.

 

[Ogrebear]

I wonder what States will be in this Alt CASand whats happened to the 'empty' lands to the West...

Independent California?

 

[Greenville]

I could see a second American civil war in this situation, but not three. I don't count a war between an independent South and the United States a civil war between Americans when their different countries. The first one deals with the secession of the Confederacy leaving successfully. California and several territories attempt a similar move to become an independent republic later on in the 1870s with federal invasion and a naval blockade.

 

[Kerguelen]

I'm worried that this will end up like Turtledove's Southern Victory series. All he did was turn the Confederate into a Nazi-Germany expy instead of creating a somewhat more creative timeline. I think that the series will probably begin decades after the civil war with the CSA transforming into a racist totalitarian regime and the United States become the good guys who try to stop the Confederate. The PODs will most likely be shown through flashbacks from characters and the rest of the world will turn into arms providers for both sides.

 

[jeckl]

I could see a second American civil war in this situation, but not three. I don't count a war between an independent South and the United States a civil war between Americans when their different countries. The first one deals with the secession of the Confederacy leaving successfully. California and several territories attempt a similar move to become an independent republic later on in the 1870s with federal invasion and a naval blockade.

From some statements I have seen, there is a second war between the US an CSA happened in the mid 1900's.

That is what they mean by 'third civil war'.

I'm worried that this will end up like Turtledove's Southern Victory series. All he did was turn the Confederate into a Nazi-Germany expy instead of creating a somewhat more creative timeline. I think that the series will probably begin decades after the civil war with the CSA transforming into a racist totalitarian regime and the United States become the good guys who try to stop the Confederate. The PODs will most likely be shown through flashbacks from characters and the rest of the world will turn into arms providers for both sides.

Well one of the other heads said they want to see how the rest of the world changed as a result of the CSA. So there is hope

 

[Kerguelen]

I hope that they some advice and critics from world renowned writer and historian Eric G. Iverson