English colonization of Australia in 1625?

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

http://www.danbyrnes.com.au/business/business11.html

http://www.danbyrnes.com.au/business/business9.html


https://www.myheritage.fi/research/...anomalehdet?itemId=34559938&action=showRecord

The above links are about a petition to colonize Terra Australis to king James I made by Sir William Courteen (1572-1636), an eminent English merchant
in 1625.
The only hint in the petition (quoted in the links) of geographic position of the lands Courteen intended to colonize is "extending eastwards and westwards from Strait of Le Maire". Immediately eastward is Tierra del Fuego, westwards Staten Island.
In 1625, only portions of the northern and western coasts of Australia were known, yet Byrnes links Courteen's petition to colonization of eastern Australia, and also one book I came across when googling speculates that had the patent been granted, Courteen might have colonized eastern seaboard of Australia.

I, on the other hand am inclined to think that Courteen thought the 'Great South Land' or Terra Australis/Magellanica to be located in the South Atlantic across Le Maire Strait:
http://www.danbyrnes.com.au/lostworlds/timeline/lwstory7.htm

So, what do you think? Do you believe that if Courteen would have received his patent and raised an expedition, it would have landed in Australia, east or north coast, and tried to colonize it?
Would the expedition have reached Australia form east via Cape Horn or from north, Spice Islands?

The newspaper article I linked seems to claim that Courteen would have colonized Northern Australia, more specifically Arnhem Land. Does it sound plausible?

I somehow think that all these historians confuse modern Australia with the concept of Terra Australis Incognita of Courteen's day, despite the fact that modern Australia formed only a small part of the imagined continent: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Australis

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

I created this thread for two reasons:
First, because I have this project about another Terra Australis called Magellanica (in the attached map, it will be either the upper version located in the South Pacific or the lower one in South Atlantic, still haven't decided which one to choose), I was googling to find real English explorers and other people who explored/thought about exploring TA (NOT modern Australia), and came across Courteen. I grew really confused because of all these sources linking him to actual Australia, so I want to figure out if they're misguided.

Second, it started to interest me in itself: WI Courteen created a Virginia-like colony in Northern Australia as the linked newspaper supposes he might have done, if it's at all plausible?

Btw, do you think that if Magellanica existed either in South Atlantic or South Pacific, the Courteen Association would have colonized it? In either location, it would lie eastwards or westwards of Le Maire Strait. Lands so situated, presumably in the vicinity of the said strait, rather than far away from it (like Australia)
Courteen wanted to colonize.

Info about my Magellanica project:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/magellanica-fictional-continent.416782/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...guelen-microcontinent-and-magellanica.417897/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...uropean-colonization-collaborative-tl.417668/

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

Bump

 

[Unknown]

This sounds interesting, IMO...

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

This sounds interesting, IMO...

What do you think about the issues I raised about it?

 

[Riain]

In the age of sail Australia can't be reached from South America unless a ship sails up the coast and crosses just below the equator; indeed when the HMS Supply did a run from Sydney to Cape Town in 1788 she went east via Cape Horn and circumnavigated the globe in the roaring 40s, the being the quickest route.

As for the others, I once read and haven't been able to find again, a suggestion that Francis Drake was tasked with finding the southern continent of 'Beach', so when he didn't find it he provided negative intelligence that it wasn't on his path. By 1625 Torres had passed through the Torres St and the Dutch had done some limited charting of the NW coast, which isn't a lot to go on.

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

In the age of sail Australia can't be reached from South America unless a ship sails up the coast and crosses just below the equator; indeed when the HMS Supply did a run from Sydney to Cape Town in 1788 she went east via Cape Horn and circumnavigated the globe in the roaring 40s, the being the quickest route.

As for the others, I once read and haven't been able to find again, a suggestion that Francis Drake was tasked with finding the southern continent of 'Beach', so when he didn't find it he provided negative intelligence that it wasn't on his path. By 1625 Torres had passed through the Torres St and the Dutch had done some limited charting of the NW coast, which isn't a lot to go on.

So we can say 100% that Courteen ending up colonizing Australia is improbable.

But what about him colonizing either Atlantic or Pacific Magellanica?

 

[Geordie]

Questions regarding Magellanica should be posted in the ASB forum. Geographical PoDa are considered ASB.

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

Bump

 

[Riain]

So we can say 100% that Courteen ending up colonizing Australia is improbable.

But what about him colonizing either Atlantic or Pacific Magellanica?

He'd have to specifically look for the east coast, Abel Tasman had a couple of goes and for various reasons made the wrong decisions and didn't do it.

That said IIRC an English expedition made a half-arsed attempted to settle north America in about 1532 that turned into a farce, so people did some crazy things back then.

 

[CalBear]

Bump

Stop with the bumping.

Now.

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

The consensus here seems to be that Courteen would not have colonized Australia in any circumstaances, just as I originally thought.
Aren't Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego or Falklands most likely sites since his petition says countries eastwards and westwards of Straits of Le Maire, and Australia is very far east- and westward...

 

[twovultures]

The consensus here seems to be that Courteen would not have colonized Australia in any circumstaances, just as I originally thought.
Aren't Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego or Falklands most likely sites since his petition says countries eastwards and westwards of Straits of Le Maire, and Australia is very far east- and westward...

Why are the English colonizing these lands? At this point in time, no Europeans really had a good grasp of Pacific geography, so the strategic importance of the Falklands and Tierra del Fuego to controlling access to the Pacific isn't known. Patagonia (IIRC) doesn't have beavers or otters, so it does not have the fur resources that drew people inland as North America did. Trying to set up a colony for the prestige of it is entirely possible under the Stuarts, but North America is so much closer and less hazardous (well, relatively) to get to.

It's not impossible mind, and it certainly is more likely than colonizing Australia at this point in time, but you need something to draw the British in. Perhaps rumors that there is gold in Ushuaia, for example, or King James gets it into his head that the Great Southern Continent is *just a stone throw's away* from the Pacific coast of South America and that he *needs* to get a staging ground to get to it.

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

Why are the English colonizing these lands? At this point in time, no Europeans really had a good grasp of Pacific geography, so the strategic importance of the Falklands and Tierra del Fuego to controlling access to the Pacific isn't known. Patagonia (IIRC) doesn't have beavers or otters, so it does not have the fur resources that drew people inland as North America did. Trying to set up a colony for the prestige of it is entirely possible under the Stuarts, but North America is so much closer and less hazardous (well, relatively) to get to.

It's not impossible mind, and it certainly is more likely than colonizing Australia at this point in time, but you need something to draw the British in. Perhaps rumors that there is gold in Ushuaia, for example, or King James gets it into his head that the Great Southern Continent is *just a stone throw's away* from the Pacific coast of South America and that he *needs* to get a staging ground to get to it.

I stated in one message that I am not doing a TL on Courteen colonizing Australia, so I'm not trying to make him or any Englishman to colonize it in 1625.
Neither am I doing one about English colonizing Patagonia, but a TL about English (Courteen) colonizing a fictional Great Southern Continent of Magellanica that's either in the South Atlantic or South Pacific (by now I'm quite sure I'll place it in the latter region).
Be the in continent either location, it would be located relatively nearby east- or westward from Le Maire Strait, and since Courteen petitioned for lands so posited in southern part of the world called Terra Australis, he would certainly have colonized the continent.

I mentioned Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego and the Falklands merely as examples of landmasses in the vicinity of Le Maire Str to demonstrate that Courteen would've likely ended up there rather than far-away, still-unknown Australia, like Dan Byrnes and some other Australians, including the writer of the Queensland newspaper in 1933 for some strange reason think.
They think so even though they quote the petition mentioning the Strait, and completely fail to grasp that the said Strait is very far away from Australia, and that in 1625 only very short line of NW Australian coastline was known, and even to the Dutch only.
P.s. Sir Richard Grenville petitioned for Queen Elizabeth I for a patent to colonize Patagonia in 1574, and economic motives were certainly behind the venture. In Queen Anne's day, British colonization of Patagonia was again pondered.

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

Actually TA was thought to be quite near South American coast across the Pacific.

 

[Hamersley Macdonnell II]

He'd have to specifically look for the east coast, Abel Tasman had a couple of goes and for various reasons made the wrong decisions and didn't do it.

That said IIRC an English expedition made a half-arsed attempted to settle north America in about 1532 that turned into a farce, so people did some crazy things back then.

Have you more info about the 1532 attempt? Who led the expedition and where did they settle?

 

[Geordie]

I stated in one message that I am not doing a TL on Courteen colonizing Australia, so I'm not trying to make him or any Englishman to colonize it in 1625.
Neither am I doing one about English colonizing Patagonia, but a TL about English (Courteen) colonizing a fictional Great Southern Continent of Magellanica that's either in the South Atlantic or South Pacific (by now I'm quite sure I'll place it in the latter region).
Be the in continent either location, it would be located relatively nearby east- or westward from Le Maire Strait, and since Courteen petitioned for lands so posited in southern part of the world called Terra Australis, he would certainly have colonized the continent.

To repeat myself, if you are including a fictional landmass in your TL, then it is, by definition, an ASB TL, rather than a Pre-1900 one.