Arminius stays (somewhat) Loyal to the Empire?

EmperorOfTheNorthSea

EmperorOfTheNorthSea

Arminius is loyal to the Empire at least to the point of not open and total rebellion. How could this come about and what would it's effects be?

What if he was loyal enough but decided to maybe engage in some less-than-ethical activities in poisoning other generals or leaking information to the enemy to get them killed (or maybe just humiliated from getting hit so hard)in order for him to have a good amount more (or maybe even total if he's ambitious enough though is probably not practical) influence in the Roman actions west of the Rhine and maybe even get the Governorship for a new German province.

I have considered doing a TL on this idea but I have put it away given the need for me to catch up with my other TL's so a discussion will be good and entertaining but if anyone want's the go-ahead to make this Idea a TL you're free to do so.
 
Joshuapooleanox

Joshuapooleanox

EmperorOfTheNorthSea said:
Arminius is loyal to the Empire at least to the point of not open and total rebellion. How could this come about and what would it's effects be?

What if he was loyal enough but decided to maybe engage in some less-than-ethical activities in poisoning other generals or leaking information to the enemy to get them killed (or maybe just humiliated from getting hit so hard)in order for him to have a good amount more (or maybe even total if he's ambitious enough though is probably not practical) influence in the Roman actions west of the Rhine and maybe even get the Governorship for a new German province.

I have considered doing a TL on this idea but I have put it away given the need for me to catch up with my other TL's so a discussion will be good and entertaining but if anyone want's the go-ahead to make this Idea a TL you're free to do so.
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Two scenarios

1. Roman Germania. Similar to Britannia, despite there not being much resources, the area was still valuable as it kept groups from messing with the Gallic people's loyalty.

2. Pacified Germania, at least for longer. If there isn't an immediate traitor, the area could easily become at least a peaceful region off the borders of standard Rome. The only reason the Germans won was prepared planning/better leadership, surprise and greater numbers.
 
EmperorOfTheNorthSea

EmperorOfTheNorthSea

Joshuapooleanox said:
1. Roman Germania. Similar to Britannia, despite there not being much resources, the area was still valuable as it kept groups from messing with the Gallic people's loyalty.
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Also the Elbe making a better border or at least a second one with the Rhine acting as a backup. But if Arminius himself was Governor it would probably mean either 1. Germans see him as a traitor to his tribe or 2. at least it isn't a cowardly olive eating clean shaven Roman (even though Arminius was basically Roman in many respects like bathing with olive oil and shaving his face).
 
EmperorOfTheNorthSea

EmperorOfTheNorthSea

Max Sinister said:
We'd have to know what exactly made him change his opinion.
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It was probably him seeing what Romans did to territory they conquered due to centuries of Generals trying to raise the Morale of their men as well as their loyalty to them as well as put some money in his own pockets ultimately killing many birds with one stone culminated over the years into almost a form of protocol it seems.

If he considers resorting to drastic yet subtle techniques to keep the main forces of the Legions behind the Rhine or taking defensive positions securing a supply line and leads mainly German Auxiliaries to do most of the conquest or something similar along those lines then he may see Germania under Rome to be beneficial to the Cherusci from which he hails.
 
EmperorOfTheNorthSea

EmperorOfTheNorthSea

Pliny the Elder describes a plow used by natives in Northern Gaul similar to later plows used in the medieval ages but it wasn't used widely because it wasn't necessary in the more populated areas of the Empire.

But if there's any long-term occupation of Germania by the Romans could any governor or some landowner seek to increase what little profits they have? I think so but what do you think?
 

Jürgen

Homestly I think my answer will be pretty boring, if Arminius stay loyal to the Empire, he would be forgotten today, and some other guy would have lead the revolt against Rome. Maybe it would result in a few decade extra of Roman rule, but in the end, the area was shitty land populated by feuding tribes. There was a reason the Romans didn't reconquer Magna Germania and it wasn't that they feared a defeat, it was that a reconquest wasn't worth it.
 
EmperorOfTheNorthSea

EmperorOfTheNorthSea

Jürgen said:
Homestly I think my answer will be pretty boring, if Arminius stay loyal to the Empire, he would be forgotten today, and some other guy would have lead the revolt against Rome. Maybe it would result in a few decade extra of Roman rule, but in the end, the area was shitty land populated by feuding tribes. There was a reason the Romans didn't reconquer Magna Germania and it wasn't that they feared a defeat, it was that a reconquest wasn't worth it.
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Probably but there are members here that insist that the Elbe is a better defense point than the Rhine (you know who you are) and part of me is wondering if there is any truth to that. Also my post above your talks about the Gallic plow that (may) have been able to make Germania at least something resembling productive.

Although I think Arminius would at least be remembered as a Benedict Arnold like figure who betrayed his own kind at least. I think the fact he was willing to go through the revolt meant he had some ambition in his breast so he may have gone on to do some other things even if those things would have been small and unrecorded but left a dramatic effect like an expansion of Auxiliary units(because many Germans are under Roman rule and perhaps a condition for peace would be some tribes would have to provide Auxiliaries) and their importance in grand strategy.
 

Falecius

Jürgen said:
Homestly I think my answer will be pretty boring, if Arminius stay loyal to the Empire, he would be forgotten today, and some other guy would have lead the revolt against Rome. Maybe it would result in a few decade extra of Roman rule, but in the end, the area was shitty land populated by feuding tribes. There was a reason the Romans didn't reconquer Magna Germania and it wasn't that they feared a defeat, it was that a reconquest wasn't worth it.
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True, but without a major defeat, they'd just stay put. And more decades of Roman rule would likely entrench the system and make a reconquest look like more of a priority.
 
EmperorOfTheNorthSea

EmperorOfTheNorthSea

Falecius said:
True, but without a major defeat, they'd just stay put. And more decades of Roman rule would likely entrench the system and make a reconquest look like more of a priority.
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Hmm, maybe.

All depends on how important the Elbe is and how much they're able to cultivate the land.

also guys correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Julius Ceaser in his Gallic war commentaries mention how a tribe of Germans seeing growing grain as lowly and had relied on livestock and hunting for their subsistence? I think it was something along those lines but if thats the case it might mean Germania is just too uncultivatable for Roman technology. It's only gains would be better defense for Gaul and more highly elite Auxiliaries like the Batavians which could actually be what pays the Province's costs though it would have to be at least a few decades before Auxiliary recruitment could begin in earnest though a few of the tribes that were more than willing to lick the boots of Rome when they came knocking could be ready for recruitment in a much shorter timespan.
 
SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox

Max Sinister said:
We'd have to know what exactly made him change his opinion.
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What made him change his opinion, or what made him revolt? I'm not really certain his opinion ever changed, but what gave him the confidence that the Romans could be beaten and expelled from Germania, was the Great Illyrian Revolt (Ariminius was in Illyria when the revolt broke out). This also happened to be what gave his revolt the necessary conditions within the Roman Empire for it to succeed. Avoid the Great Illyrian revolt and you may be able to convince Ariminius that outright military revolt won't really achieve much.
 
EmperorOfTheNorthSea

EmperorOfTheNorthSea

Max Sinister said:
Well, at some time he was loyal, and some time later, not anymore. That's what I meant.
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Yeah. I think the reason he went traitor was because he realized the Roman army was not to much different from a band of brigands and would rape and pillage Germania more than any other tribe could ever do.

Thats why I suggested him doing his best to keep the Legions from crossing the Rhine and do the Conquest himself or something along those lines.
 
Avrorrange

Avrorrange

Jürgen said:
Homestly I think my answer will be pretty boring, if Arminius stay loyal to the Empire, he would be forgotten today, and some other guy would have lead the revolt against Rome. Maybe it would result in a few decade extra of Roman rule, but in the end, the area was shitty land populated by feuding tribes. There was a reason the Romans didn't reconquer Magna Germania and it wasn't that they feared a defeat, it was that a reconquest wasn't worth it.
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A defeat like Teutoberg relied heavily upon a guy like Arminius--someone the Romans considered one of them and highly versed in their military doctrines.
 
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