Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot

Hecatee

Donor
As far as I know the way the empire worked would prevent this role : too much of the tax gathering system was centraly organized to allow a single group's control on it. I translated quite a few tax recipes from Egypt in my studies' days and do not remember jews in the role, just locals for the lower rungs of the tax machine and roman citizens (who might be of local origin) higher up. As for trade, the jews did have communities in a number of cities but mostly in the east, and they did trade but did not enjoy any specific advantage. If I remember well Juvenal's depiction of the jews does not make them particularily rich or trade oriented (altough that might be deliberate, given Juvenal's racist views). So I don't think the conditions are met to make a medieval type jewish "class" in the roman empire, especially not in the 2nd century.
 

Hecatee

Donor
And the seeds for a second major revolt in Judea has just been planted. Add the fact that Hadrian unwisely deported some pissed off Danubians to the one province that's already angry at Rome and this TTL's second revolt will be even more costly for Rome. This is one of those situations where it would better if the Romans either have a stalemate, or a Phyrric victory that would force them to negotiate and own up to the fact that for over the last century they been dropping the ball when it came to the Jews. This upcoming revolt can serve as a sort of "reality check" for the Romans on both the military and provincial administration front.

Well yes and no : the Danubians are isolated by language and culture, and are felt to be part of the problems by Bar Kokhba and his friends, so they'll be targeted. Thus they'll be more of an unvoluntary ally to Rome than anything else, which is the roman plan from the start, with land grants to follow the revolt for the surviving danubians and deportation for even more jews to area with strong military presence, with maybe other displaced peoples from Germania to take their place : note that both this revolt and the great danubian conflict are going to happen at the same time...
 
Well yes and no : the Danubians are isolated by language and culture, and are felt to be part of the problems by Bar Kokhba and his friends, so they'll be targeted. Thus they'll be more of an unvoluntary ally to Rome than anything else, which is the roman plan from the start, with land grants to follow the revolt for the surviving danubians and deportation for even more jews to area with strong military presence, with maybe other displaced peoples from Germania to take their place : note that both this revolt and the great danubian conflict are going to happen at the same time...

Given that revolts in both Judea and Dacia will be going down at the time, Hadrian's resettlement policies could easily blow up in his face. If the manpower cost in putting down both revolts along with operations in Germania reduces the strength of the legions enough, then whoever succeeds Hadrian as Emperor will have little choice but to temporarily abandon the resettlement policy and finally start addressing legitimate grievances in the provinces and use more inclusive approaches.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Given that revolts in both Judea and Dacia will be going down at the time, Hadrian's resettlement policies could easily blow up in his face. If the manpower cost in putting down both revolts along with operations in Germania reduces the strength of the legions enough, then whoever succeeds Hadrian as Emperor will have little choice but to temporarily abandon the resettlement policy and finally start addressing legitimate grievances in the provinces and use more inclusive approaches.
That's the main risk, especially as important forces are still tied down in Britannia after the latest batch of conquest. But here two elements play in the Roman's favors : distance between the two places means that communication and synchronization between the deported and those still at home is impossible, and the forces mobilized to quell the Danubian revolt come from the west of the empire, with some transferts from western north africa to temporarily take the tasks of the spanish guarison : the eastern forces are still intact and at more or less full strenght, although with a few more green troops than OTL (losses from the Danubian conquests from a few years previous) : don't forget that we are now some 10 years after the POD :)
This does not mean that the relocation policies won't be retought, but I can't see the Romans change their policy toward the Jews. In fact I could see Hadrian's reaction as being stronger than OTL. I'm even thinking of playing with the idea of lauching an Eburon like solution on Judea...
 
That's the main risk, especially as important forces are still tied down in Britannia after the latest batch of conquest. But here two elements play in the Roman's favors : distance between the two places means that communication and synchronization between the deported and those still at home is impossible, and the forces mobilized to quell the Danubian revolt come from the west of the empire, with some transferts from western north africa to temporarily take the tasks of the spanish guarison : the eastern forces are still intact and at more or less full strenght, although with a few more green troops than OTL (losses from the Danubian conquests from a few years previous) : don't forget that we are now some 10 years after the POD :)
This does not mean that the relocation policies won't be retought, but I can't see the Romans change their policy toward the Jews. In fact I could see Hadrian's reaction as being stronger than OTL. I'm even thinking of playing with the idea of lauching an Eburon like solution on Judea...

If the second revolt is easily put down, then the Romans won't change their Jewish policy. However if the revolt results in either a stalemate or a Pyhrric victory with other Roman forces tied up elsewhere then Rome's policy will change out of necessity. Say Rome suffers some setbacks in Dacia that requires reinforcements from the East. While those eastern reinforcements are committed to the Danubian revolt, the revolt in Judea breaks out (remember those Danubian settlers hate Rome just as much as the Jews and news about the Danubian revolt will eventually reach Judea) and now Rome will have to deal with both the Jews and the Danubian settlers rising up against them with the additional possibility of Parthian intervention. That's why in one of my prior posts, I suggested that Hadrian rethink his Jewish policy because in resettling Danubians in the one province that despise foreigners and hates Rome's guts, he has unintentionally consolidated his enemies in one place. Roman legions can't be everywhere at once and aren't infinite manpower and experience wise, so Rome will very soon have to choose between maintaining the Levant or the Danubian lands. One false move and the chaos of the 3rd and 4th centuries AD of OTL arrive a hundred years early.
 
Castra Regina, province of Raetia, temporary camp of the VII Gemina, May 127 CE

Hecatee

Donor
The issues with the message board last monday meant I could not post this update, I hope you'll like it !

Castra Regina, province of Raetia, temporary camp of the VII Gemina, May 127 CE


The soldiers were sitting around the campfire, eating their supper while exchanging the last gossips. The big news of the day was the major battle an auxiliary unit had fought against the Marcomanni a few weeks before and of which the news had just arrived in the camp. The IX Batavorum were said to be victorious but at an horrendous cost to themselves, with more than half of the men dead and all the survivors being hurt in some way. The unit would be out of combat for a while, if the men were not simply cannibalized to replenish other formations.

But they had given worse than they had received. At least three thousands dead barbarians, including their king, who’d been killed in the middle of the Marcomanni’s rout, and the best of his warriors. The tribe’s power was broken and their allies had lost the ability to communicate between themselves. One could even say there would be two wars now, one in the Dacian area and one in the Agri Decumates…

This also meant that their general, the Caesar Voltinius, would want to move earlier to benefit from the opportunities opened by the barbarians’ defeat. And that, many thought, was bad news : more walking, and possible death at the end of the day. Others argued that at least it’d take them off from the bloody training they’d had to do since they’d left Hiberia, which would be a bloody relief even if they still had to use the nails on the sole of their calligaes. And then there were those who simply shrugged, not caring one way or another as long as food was to be had and loot was possible…

In the officer's’ tent the atmosphere was rather different. There the staff officers were delighted with the news they’d received and were looking at how to best capitalize on the victory. The soldiers had arrived a few days ago after a long march of some 60 days from the south, 1700 miles on the imperial roads. During those two months the barbarians had ravaged the Agri Decumates, pillaging towns such as Aquilea or Arae Flaviae, but had been contained by the local units and proved unable to cross either the Rhenus or the Danuvius. Now, heavy with plunder, they would slowly retreat north… where the legions would await them.

Benefiting from a secure eastern flank, Voltunius has decided to strike north at the limit between the Hermunduri and Marcomanni territories, while the legion based at Mongotiacum would strike south toward the Necer river. Hopefully the two legions would be able to bag the barbarians inside the Agri Decumanes and destroy them in one swoop before moving inside the barbarians’ territory and ravaging it. With some luck they expected to be able to build a new limes starting from the Rhenus along the Moenus up to a point north of Castra Regina, and then a chain of control points south to the city, adding a huge buffer in front of the Agri Decumanes made of the Hermunduri territory. Such an addition to the empire would probably not shorten the borders for much, but would provide a lot of security to Raetia and Germania Superior…

Quintus Baebius Novalis was not thinking about those lofty considerations. With his men he was trying to keep the legion in shape for the fight. Missing or broken caligae, lost pilum, new nails, even a godsdamned piece of ballista, it seemed every damn soldier of the unit had lost something that needed replacement. And that meant finding supplies, asking the right man to make the requested item, checking that the soldiers paid for their item and that the money did not go lost in some grubby hands…

It was not fun to manage the logistics of an army in campaign, and the damn legatus was not making his job any easier by forcing the men do to quick marches that used men and equipment, and disrupted his production and distribution planning. He was really more of a garrison kind of guy...
 
Something tells me that this particular legatus will find out the hard way that while amateurs only study tactics, truly great commanders study both tactics and logistics. It's not for nothing that Napoleon said that an army marches on its stomach.
 
Agri Decumates, early June 127 CE

Hecatee

Donor
Agri Decumates, early June 127 CE



One of his arms was in a sling and the other hurt like Cerberus himself was tugging at it, but he was alive. Quintus Baebius Novalis could not say the same of hundreds of other legionaries and auxiliaries now lying on the field of battle. They were officially victorious, but at what cost ! All units had not reported yet but the butcher’s bill would certainly be above a thousand men. The first cohors was but the shadow of itself, the primipilus dead as well as seven of his centurions and half its Optiones and Tesserarii, and the rest of the legion seemed to be in the same kind of shape.

Still they had held their ground, as proved by the piles of dead barbarians in front of him. He’d been given command of some of the most valid men to clean the battlefield, see to the wounded, either having them brought to the camp or being given the mercy hit that would end their suffering, something of course more often done to the barbarians than to his men.

A field surgeon had seen to his wound, cleansed them with vinegar before putting honey on them and bandaging them. As an officer he’d been treated early. The simple fact that a man part of the legion’s higher command had been hurt as badly as he’d been was proof enough that it had been a close fight. There had been at least three barbarians for each of the Romans present on the field, maybe even four. Marcomani reinforcements, fleeing from the punishment being meted against their tribe further east, had swelled the local barbarians. Thirty to forty thousand men had fought were twenty at most had been expected, against a single legion and three cohors.

Luckily one had been a mounted cohors, giving more hitting power to the Romans and allowing the heir to the empire himself to lead a charge on the barbarians’ flanlk, in a move that looked like something from Alexander’s epics. He’d heard Voltinius had survived the charge but not his horse… nor the one he’d taken from one of the troopers : he’d been on his third animal when the battle ended in the foes’ rout.

Now all that remained was this ground made spongy by all the blood that’d flowed in it, and all the other fluids. His slave would have a godsdamned time working before he’d be able to get the grime out of the leather of his master’s calligae. But before he still had work to do. Alongside with the wounded parties he already had men collecting arrows, armors and weapons, as well as all the valuables they could find.

Of course the loot would be collected at a central place and then distributed. Of course not all of it would make it to the collectors’ books. So he also had to look for those soldiers and prevent the most blatant cases of theft. After all his own bonus was also dependent on the total collected amount…

In many ways his legion had been lucky. Undertrained when in Spain, they had been able to retrain while on the way, relearn many skills the unit had not used in many, many years. Muscles which had given place to fat had been trimmed during the long walk, and that had given the men enough strength to keep their ranks in front of the onslaught, and to repusle the waves of warrior that had crushed against them, steadily retreating a few paces every time the pile of corpses in front of them got too high.

The grass under his foot was red, sticky. Flies bused all over the battlefield, and the stench of blood and feces common to all soldiers had already started to taint with the smell of bodies too long in the sun. Here and there he could see birds starting to pick on bits of chair strews around the field or pocking the corpses.

This had been his first major fight, and he sure hoped not to ever see such bloodspill again...
 
With the legions' manpower being whittled away by there close victories, how long until the other shoe (in the form of a military defeat and or a provincial revolt) drop? Part of the legions' problem seems to be the combination of the neglect of combat training and the subpar quality of the senior officers (inexperienced garrison type commanders not paying attention to the logistical side of the campaign and wearing down their troops as a result).
 

Hecatee

Donor
With the legions' manpower being whittled away by there close victories, how long until the other shoe (in the form of a military defeat and or a provincial revolt) drop? Part of the legions' problem seems to be the combination of the neglect of combat training and the subpar quality of the senior officers (inexperienced garrison type commanders not paying attention to the logistical side of the campaign and wearing down their troops as a result).
Not all legions have the same problems : here the fact that the revolt of the barbarians was all along the Danube meant that the Romans had to bring in less efficient forces from Spain, but that's really an exception. Also they had not expected as many barbarians to fight them during this battle, and were thus in a very bad position.
As for logistics, yes they walked a lot far from their base, and the man in charge of the logistic lacked a bit of experience, but he does not really face much more than any man in his position and the issues I described in the before-last update was more day to day issues for an army on the march, he was mostly bitching about like most soldiers are wont to do :) Novalis is still a veteran with more than 20 years of soldiering behind him and not all his years were spent in Spain !
The auxiliaries close call from a few weeks previous was more a classic ambush and as such only better scoutting could have prevented it, but the land was not really helping them here, so they got caught. In other places on the other hand the roman forces have done great, with lighter losses than expected. Beside we are still early in the 2nd century and even with the plague from a few years back we are nowhere near the situation of the 160's.
Overall the losses endurred by the Romans during this version of Hadrian's rule are more important but the manpower pool is still full and, more importantly, the barbarians have been set back two or three generations at least with the level of losses they've had (or are going to suffer in the reprisal operations on ennemy territory that roman units will now be able to mount on a larger scale).
The provinces are, with one major exception, rather quite, as are the Parthians.

The exception is of course Judea. There things are going to explode earlier than OTL : while Bar Kokhba's revolt started in 132, here you can expect things to really blow around 129
 
so pushing the borders to natural defencible ones kicking the barbarians in the teeth! might i suggest that the Crimea would be a good next conquest/province as i believe it was already a client kingdom? it would draw the barbarians like a moth to the flames and is defencible with a small limes and a strong naval prescence (hence renforcing the Danube fleet) and this would allow more influence and control over the very rich farmlands of todays Ukraine? and secure the black sea for Roman commerce! love the updates on of the best Roman timelines i have seen for a while!
 

Hecatee

Donor
so pushing the borders to natural defencible ones kicking the barbarians in the teeth! might i suggest that the Crimea would be a good next conquest/province as i believe it was already a client kingdom? it would draw the barbarians like a moth to the flames and is defencible with a small limes and a strong naval prescence (hence renforcing the Danube fleet) and this would allow more influence and control over the very rich farmlands of todays Ukraine? and secure the black sea for Roman commerce! love the updates on of the best Roman timelines i have seen for a while!

Indeed, the idea is to go for natural borders as much as possible and let no one thread on Rome's feets. About Crimea, I don't think the Romans would do such thing, but they could make it THE place for exile from the empire. In the time of Augustus it had been the Danubian region (think of Ovid) but with the greater integration of the region in the empire I could see Crimea becoming the place where you can send those you don't want killed, who can live in the cities there without interfering with the empire (and it still beats the hell of being sent off to some caucasian hellhole)

Making Crimea a kind of "penal colony" would still help with trade, but maybe less than what you expect.
 
Hi Hecatee, i was thinking more of a barbarian trap drawing them into assaulting fortifications i.e the Gothic migrations and the Huns? but a Penal colony would work even better!!! if you Hold the Crimea stongly you could eleimate the future threat of the Gothic Piracy that devestated the area about 100 years after your timeline? (not sure of the dates!)
 

Hecatee

Donor
Actually I'd say you could make the piracy issue worse because there would be more ships availlables to sail the seas... Also don't see it as a kind of french guyana either, because exile was not a punishment used that often, but it could see some patricians being exiled with little remaining of their fortune, which might still be a lot by local standards, trying to create farming estates with city dwellings to take refuge. Actually I could even see it go the way of a proto-feodal model in the Crimea and Ukraine, with fortified villae lloking more like small medieval castles...
 

Hecatee

Donor
I was unable to update yesterday and must rewrite some bits, so here's a map with a few new informations for you guys... Hashed brown : new territories gained in the last 10 years, purple arrows : permanent legion base moved

carte-empire-romain-grand-format1.jpg
 
Good map.

I expect that in the long term, the best borders for Rome to have would be: control all of the British Isles; in mainland Europe have your northeastern border on the rivers Vistula and Tyras. This would probably be easier to defend than Rome's current borders, but it would be a difficult task to subdue/expel all of those Germanic tribes.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Good map.

I expect that in the long term, the best borders for Rome to have would be: control all of the British Isles; in mainland Europe have your northeastern border on the rivers Vistula and Tyras. This would probably be easier to defend than Rome's current borders, but it would be a difficult task to subdue/expel all of those Germanic tribes.

Such a task would take generations, if possible... Right now the border has been made much straighter than in our past, and they will take at least fifthy years to consolidate the new territories and repel at least one more generational revolt before the great pest that struck during Marcus Aurelius' reign comes disturb things.

Thus I'm not sure the Romans would go much further for a long time, except if someone decides to go for a border on the Albis, maybe between the two branches feeding the main river
 
Good map.

I expect that in the long term, the best borders for Rome to have would be: control all of the British Isles; in mainland Europe have your northeastern border on the rivers Vistula and Tyras. This would probably be easier to defend than Rome's current borders, but it would be a difficult task to subdue/expel all of those Germanic tribes.
they need cultural warfare, and more slaves and land reform. not borders. perhaps they could alleviate the problem by organizing raids for the barbarians. LOL instead of tourists you get rape and pillage.
 

Hecatee

Donor
they need cultural warfare, and more slaves and land reform. not borders. perhaps they could alleviate the problem by organizing raids for the barbarians. LOL instead of tourists you get rape and pillage.
Yes and no, they also need to reform internaly. To generate riches inside the empire and stop importing so much luxuries from the east, to lower the relative cost of the army (not the absolute cost : same army, larger ressource base). Barbarians... There might be more efforts in trying to either lower the barbarians' power or to civilize them. The recent war has done a lot of damages in the danubian communities, setting them back at least a century, but of course their downfall won't stop there : tribes from further north will come and take their lands, making them somewhat more diffuse and thus more vulnerable to the Romans (troop concentration is more difficult due to distance), so the Marcommani and Hermanduri will now dissolve : Cherusci and Suevi will move south/south-east and take a lot of land, and get stronger earlier but also have stronger links with Rome...
 
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