Planes and pilots of training units were pressed into the Stalingrad airlift and lost. This also must be avoided - I personally consider Stalingrad to be the beginning of the end for the Luftwaffe...
Alternative to the ME-262
- Thread starter Matt jones
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Planes and pilots of training units were pressed into the Stalingrad airlift and lost. This also must be avoided - I personally consider Stalingrad to be the beginning of the end for the Luftwaffe...
I always find it curious that the Germans sought a technical superiority in material to offset their numerical inferiority but failed miserably to invest in a superior training system which would have gone a long way to do the same. Poorly trained aircrew are just training more pilots to be extra victories for the Allies and needing more aeroplanes to replace those thrown away through those poorly trained aircrew. In a roundabout sort of way a model training regime would go a lot of the way of replacing the benefits of the Me262 were nothing made to replace that airframe.
A point to note in the headlong rush to more and/or better turbojets is that Germany had a huge piston aero engine production capacity that cannot all be instantly made into turbojet manufacturing so airframes will still be needed for those high power engines. I suggest that, whilst the turbojet elite are busy ruling the upper skies, the piston engined common people are concentrated upon the ground. Close support, interdiction and turbojet airfield defence for example. The refining industry also was geared to producing petrol and refineries cannot just switch to other fuels at a whim on demand.
The reality is that by the end of 1942 the window to get game changing aeroplanes and ground forces ready for service in numbers is passing and the game has become slowing down the path to defeat. Better trained pilots in good conventional aeroplanes will perform this task best and benefit from concentrating on that. The drive to fancy jets and high tech weapons was a diversion from the actual task in hand. Those advocating the He280 are providing the best turbojet opportunity. Unless they are in service in numbers with well trained pilots, turbojets are not the solution to the problem the Luftwaffe actually had.
Thus my alternative to the Me262 is the He280 and the earliest decision possible to make it the standard Luftwaffe production fighter together with according pilot training a priority even over operational activity.
A point to note in the headlong rush to more and/or better turbojets is that Germany had a huge piston aero engine production capacity that cannot all be instantly made into turbojet manufacturing so airframes will still be needed for those high power engines. I suggest that, whilst the turbojet elite are busy ruling the upper skies, the piston engined common people are concentrated upon the ground. Close support, interdiction and turbojet airfield defence for example. The refining industry also was geared to producing petrol and refineries cannot just switch to other fuels at a whim on demand.
The reality is that by the end of 1942 the window to get game changing aeroplanes and ground forces ready for service in numbers is passing and the game has become slowing down the path to defeat. Better trained pilots in good conventional aeroplanes will perform this task best and benefit from concentrating on that. The drive to fancy jets and high tech weapons was a diversion from the actual task in hand. Those advocating the He280 are providing the best turbojet opportunity. Unless they are in service in numbers with well trained pilots, turbojets are not the solution to the problem the Luftwaffe actually had.
Thus my alternative to the Me262 is the He280 and the earliest decision possible to make it the standard Luftwaffe production fighter together with according pilot training a priority even over operational activity.
Good points all. This is why I conjectured having the HE280 pressed into service immediately and continued focus on prop planes as per OTL to help defend the jets. In reality, it is too little too late. I wonder even if the following PODs would even help--
- No Stalingrad airlift, sixth army withdraws.
- Operation Crossbow fails because air defense in the area is significantly improved.
- USAF bombing campaign in 43 leads Hitler to adopt Goering's plan for a pure defense strategy.
- Proximity fuses for AA shells go mainstream.
- Hitler gives up on V2 and puts all emphasis on rocket technology with anti-aircraft applications (i.e. Wasserfall).
- He280 given full development priority. New jet engine technology is simply adapted to He280 and AR234.
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LWalso suffered crippling losses of Junkers 52 transports during the invasions of Holland and Crete.
Heavy losses in Crete meant that was the last Fallschirmjagers' assault during WW2.
From a logistics perspective, more Ju 252 transports would have been better for supplying Stalingrad, etc.
Most of this translantes into "Hitler stops being an idiot", so, good luck with that.
On the fuses... did germany had those, or tried to? Did not know that...
thorr97
Banned
A point about the Reich's pilot training methodology - it can't change and if it tries to it will just lose the war faster.
From well before the war started, Germany knew it could not sustain a war of attrition against its likely enemies. Thus, if it was to have any hope of winning it had to win early and fast before its enemies could bring their superior numbers - manpower, industrial base, resource access, etc.,. - to bear. Thus everything had to be based on the offensive and winning big, winning fast, and winning early. Pulling back your best pilots out of their combat postings is entirely against that imperative. It's a attrition war luxury that Germany simply could not afford.
And by the time the war had inescapably turned into an attrition war it was far too late to try and change that approach.
The Japanese also suffered from this and did so for the same reasons. And they lost for the same reasons as well.
From well before the war started, Germany knew it could not sustain a war of attrition against its likely enemies. Thus, if it was to have any hope of winning it had to win early and fast before its enemies could bring their superior numbers - manpower, industrial base, resource access, etc.,. - to bear. Thus everything had to be based on the offensive and winning big, winning fast, and winning early. Pulling back your best pilots out of their combat postings is entirely against that imperative. It's a attrition war luxury that Germany simply could not afford.
And by the time the war had inescapably turned into an attrition war it was far too late to try and change that approach.
The Japanese also suffered from this and did so for the same reasons. And they lost for the same reasons as well.
marathag
Banned
They worked on acoustic and photocell types.
They had noting that could survive a cannon shot and be mass produced.
thorr97
Banned
As to Me-262 alternatives, here too the Germans were in a bind. They had neither the time nor the resources - material or human - to divert to properly develop and deploy any "Wunderweapon" that could've won the war for them. For any jet or rocket powered fighter to make a decisive difference in the war the Germans would have to produce them in truly substantial numbers. Changing over their production lines to accommodate this - even assuming they got the designs matured enough to be operational - would mean a substantial drop in existing "conventional" designs. There'd then be a truly horrendous hole in their military capabilities between that switching over and when sufficient numbers of the new fighters arrived to take over.
That would, in all likelihood lose the Germans so much ground that the new higher performing machines couldn't make up for it.
The Allies had such a huge advantage in industrial capacity that they could afford the luxury of dabbling with various high performance prototypes - while not affecting the overall production of existing types. Germany simply did not have that luxury.
So, if they "went for jets" earlier they'd simply lose the war earlier.
Better then to simply keep upgrading and enhancing their existing types - a great emphasis on the FW-190s, for instance, would've paid more dividends for the Reich than their jet and rocket fighter programs combined.
That would, in all likelihood lose the Germans so much ground that the new higher performing machines couldn't make up for it.
The Allies had such a huge advantage in industrial capacity that they could afford the luxury of dabbling with various high performance prototypes - while not affecting the overall production of existing types. Germany simply did not have that luxury.
So, if they "went for jets" earlier they'd simply lose the war earlier.
Better then to simply keep upgrading and enhancing their existing types - a great emphasis on the FW-190s, for instance, would've paid more dividends for the Reich than their jet and rocket fighter programs combined.
It's still T-stoff and V-stoff one bump or high G manuver and BOOM!For a single jet engine design there was the Project VII Focke Wulf Flitzer but it wasn't designed until September of 1944 though.
It also had a liquid-propellant rocket built-in beneath the jet engine to give supplementary thrust.
Jets need high temperature resistant alloys that Germany doesn't have access to.A large scale jet air force wasn't logistically doable.
Best choice, start looking for a
Me-109 replacement in 41/42,and don't go the interceptor rout go for a dedicated air superiority fighter.
Me-109 replacement in 41/42,and don't go the interceptor rout go for a dedicated air superiority fighter.
marathag
Banned
Yet they still made them. Just low MTBF, so the extra prop is a good idea.
Germany wasn't running out of engines, but fuel. So anything that runs on Kerosene is a win
And jet section is easy to work on
thorr97
Banned
Marathag,
And yet it was the lack of jet engines which kept most of the Me-262 airframes on the ground. If anything, it was the fact that the Germans did run out of jet engines that was the main problem with the Me-262 and their other jets. They produced airframes easily enough but manufacturing enough jet engines was never achieved by the Reich. One Messerschmidt factory ran so short of jet engines for their Me-262s that the engine-less airframes began piling up outside the factory. They tried dispersing them around the factory grounds and camouflaging them but a USAF air raid on the factory not only destroyed the facility it also turned those accumulated airframes into twist and burnt scrap. This was several months worth of production gone. And all for lack of engines to get the planes airborne.
And yet it was the lack of jet engines which kept most of the Me-262 airframes on the ground. If anything, it was the fact that the Germans did run out of jet engines that was the main problem with the Me-262 and their other jets. They produced airframes easily enough but manufacturing enough jet engines was never achieved by the Reich. One Messerschmidt factory ran so short of jet engines for their Me-262s that the engine-less airframes began piling up outside the factory. They tried dispersing them around the factory grounds and camouflaging them but a USAF air raid on the factory not only destroyed the facility it also turned those accumulated airframes into twist and burnt scrap. This was several months worth of production gone. And all for lack of engines to get the planes airborne.
Ta-152 was using the B4, that was 87 octane. (linky; the column "Kraftstoff" - fuel type)
On about same power per engine (Jumo 213A vs. DB-603A), the Do-335 will be some 40-50 mph faster (neccessity in a contested airspace), while carrying much heavier firepower.
The Flitzer was a jet aircraft, unlike the Me-163.
He's referring to the small rocket mounted beneath the jet engine, it would only be carrying a small amount of fuel but still probably enough to explode if something went wrong but I don't think it would be as dangerous a rocket powered plane like the Me-163 that was basically a flying fuel tank.
Yes, but the need to come up with alloys that avoided using those precious metals was another reason for the delay.
Regarding jets, let's look at it this way: the british, who add access to everything they needed, plus US support, logistics-wise, barelly managed to build 1 operational squadron, by mid-44. I really don't see how the germans could have done much better, at least in the quantities required, considering their shortages.
Looks like the rocket engine was discarded from consideration? From the Luft 46 site (link):
The single He S 011A tubojet was to be supplemented with a Walter HWK 509 A-2 bi-fuel rocket mounted below the jet, although this arrangement was later revised, eliminating the rocket engine.
Interesting, I read on Wiki that the original design (project VI) had no rocket and the jet intakes were on the fuselage not the wings. Project VII had the intakes moved to the wings and the rocket assist.
Looks like they changed their minds about the rocket in the end though. What I find interesting though is that the project was cancelled due the Flitzer having the same performance as the Me-262 but the fact that it only used one engine instead of two should have been a plus, no?