Star Wars WI: Darth Vader depicted as black.

[New Deal Democrat]

I've been reading various accounts of the filming of Return of the Jedi and one fairly minor but possibly groundbreaking "What If" stood out.

The production team was unsure who it wanted to cast as the unmasked, dying Darth Vader. Director Richard Marquand wanted a well-known British actor, possibly Laurence Oliver while George Lucas claimed that would just distract the audience and wanted someone unknown. Of course the part eventually went to the excellent Sebastian Shaw.

Let's say though that one or the other is more stubborn and refuses to agree with the other's idea. Eventually , if only to break the deadlock, someone suggests the obvious choice of having James Earl Jones play the unmasked Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Not wanting to waste anymore time on the issue, Jones is cast, filmed, and included in the movie. Besides that brief actor change Return of the Jedi comes out as the film we know today.

How would making Vader black effect Star Wars and pop culture in general?

On one hand one of the most famous fictional characters on the planet is matter-of-factly African-American, on the other hand there's the possibility that it could be read as somewhat racist that the great monster of the screen is black, especially given the mostly white protagonists of the Original Trilogy. If the prequels are filmed in the 1990s/2000s then that adds another layer to things with an African-American actor guaranteed a major role.

So, would this simple casting choice have any major effect?

 

[Drewbdu]

I've been reading various accounts of the filming of Return of the Jedi and one fairly minor but possibly groundbreaking "What If" stood out.

The production team was unsure who it wanted to cast as the unmasked, dying Darth Vader. Director Richard Marquand wanted a well-known British actor, possibly Laurence Oliver while George Lucas claimed that would just distract the audience and wanted someone unknown. Of course the part eventually went to the excellent Sebastian Shaw.

Let's say though that one or the other is more stubborn and refuses to agree with the other's idea. Eventually , if only to break the deadlock, someone suggests the obvious choice of having James Earl Jones play the unmasked Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Not wanting to waste anymore time on the issue, Jones is cast, filmed, and included in the movie. Besides that brief actor change Return of the Jedi comes out as the film we know today.

How would making Vader black effect Star Wars and pop culture in general?

On one hand one of the most famous fictional characters on the planet is matter-of-factly African-American, on the other hand there's the possibility that it could be read as somewhat racist that the great monster of the screen is black, especially given the mostly white protagonists of the Original Trilogy. If the prequels are filmed in the 1990s/2000s then that adds another layer to things with an African-American actor guaranteed a major role.

So, would this simple casting choice have any major effect?

It would make absolutely no sense considering that both his children, Luke and Leia, are white. I don't know how that would be explained in canon, but I envision the average moviegoer having trouble seeing through such a great inconsistency.

 

[zert]

It would make absolutely no sense considering that both his children, Luke and Leia, are white. I don't know how that would be explained in canon, but I envision the average moviegoer having trouble seeing through such a great inconsistency.

You beat me to the punch. They would need to get rid of the idea that Vader was Anakin. Otherwise just seems like a desperate shock ploy.

 

[Sicarius]

I don't think the racial admixture that gave us Carol Channing and Wentworth Miller producing a Luke Skywalker from a James Earl Jones is that improbable even in our prosaic real world [1], let alone in a world with muppets flying FTL spaceships, but I think the reaction would not be positive.





[1]

 

[NORGCO]

I don't think the racial admixture that gave us Carol Channing and Wentworth Miller producing a Luke Skywalker from a James Earl Jones is that improbable even in our prosaic real world [1], let alone in a world with muppets flying FTL spaceships, but I think the reaction would not be positive.





[1]

Most movie viewers would have assumed we were supposed to believe Vader's wife cheated on him and he was too gullible to see it.

Vader's wife cheating on him is not going to sell to people who had spent the last three films seeing him portrayed as the living embodiment of mass murdering evil. Which is how the first two films looked to those of us who were adults at the time.

Vader as gullible is too much of a WTF to sell.

 

[Theoretical_TJ]

Vader as gullible is too much of a WTF to sell.

And that sums up one of the biggest problems of the prequels right there. It's a jarring disconnect.

 

[Arkenfolm]

It's an old joke I heard at school years ago--"How do we know that Darth Vader wasn't black--Because he admitted he was the father!" Haw haw haw, amirite?

Even now I think that might have issues, let alone in 1983. And as you said, it could go both ways with both racists hating it as well as civil rights groups, since the only two black men in the films are Lando and someone who except for a few minutes at the very end is a lying, murdering, tyrant who our white heroes have to defeat (and is redeemed by a white man who is only identified as mixed-race at the end, not that Mark Hamill would pass well for mixed race). Or as also said in this thread, that would mean Darth Vader's a cuck if we want to take Luke and Leia as not his biological children. In 1983, no one wants to think that, right? It seems a losing proposition every way.

 

[Zheng He]

It's an old joke I heard at school years ago--"How do we know that Darth Vader wasn't black--Because he admitted he was the father!" Haw haw haw, amirite?

Even now I think that might have issues, let alone in 1983. And as you said, it could go both ways with both racists hating it as well as civil rights groups, since the only two black men in the films are Lando and someone who except for a few minutes at the very end is a lying, murdering, tyrant who our white heroes have to defeat (and is redeemed by a white man who is only identified as mixed-race at the end, not that Mark Hamill would pass well for mixed race). Or as also said in this thread, that would mean Darth Vader's a cuck if we want to take Luke and Leia as not his biological children. In 1983, no one wants to think that, right? It seems a losing proposition every way.

There was also a black Y-Wing pilot in Return of the Jedi. He didn't last long...

 

[Zheng He]

BTW, this reminds me of the Mad Magazine spoof of Empire Strikes Back:

Vader - "Fluke, join me and I'll buy you that Johnny Asteroid doll you wanted when you were a kid."

Fluke - "Hey, how did you know about that?"

Vader - "Because Fluke, I'm your father."

Fluke - "Oh come on, dad wasn't black."

Vader - "This is a plastic mask you idiot."

 

[Perkeo]

It would make absolutely no sense considering that both his children, Luke and Leia, are white. I don't know how that would be explained in canon, but I envision the average moviegoer having trouble seeing through such a great inconsistency.

But OTOH it is not set in stone that Vader is luke's father. David Prowse leaked the information that this was considered (didn't catch much attention in the pre-WWW aera), so it must be a long-term consideration, but it certainly wasn't set in stone before The Empire Strikes Back left the cutting room.

 

[Obergruppenführer Smith]

Just a food for thought: Why are we assuming that SW genetics work the same as in our Galaxy?

 

[Magnum]

Just a food for thought: Why are we assuming that SW genetics work the same as in our Galaxy?

Why shouldn't we?

 

[Swiffness]

Oh man, you can already hear the echoes of the REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE that timeline would produce lol.

CHARLIE MURPHY: Cause of my complexion, he used to call me darkness. He calls me and my brother darkness. Darkness brothers. See, this was long before Wesley Snipes, back then we was the blackest niggas on the planet according to Rick James.

RICK JAMES: Eddie and both of them darkness. Twin brother darkness.

Folks, have you actually seen James Earl Jones? The dude ain't exactly Wesley Snipes. Here's his twitter avatar:

He's not "High Yellow" but he's pretty far up there on the African-American gradient scale. Perhaps a shade above Obama.

Its hard to tell for certain of course, because us light-skinned negroes can vary depending on the light.

Makeup can make you look even whiter.

So yeah, audiences wouldn't be distracted or think "Lol Luke's mom cheated on Vader". He'd fit. Even the most eagle-eyed racists might be fooled until the credits.

Shit, Lucas should have done this. Mustafa would've knocked this out of the park. I think his voice work makes people sorta forget how got damned top shelf THULSA DOOM is as an actor. And it'd be far superior because it'd really be Vader's voice as he wheezes and dies. Skywalker Sound would use a lighter compressor and a low cut filter on his voice once the helmet came off to complete the effect.

Dammit, I'm adding this to that perfect "Spielberg directs RotJ with Kashyyyk instead of Endor" timeline.

 

[Broek]

I don't think the racial admixture that gave us Carol Channing and Wentworth Miller producing a Luke Skywalker from a James Earl Jones is that improbable even in our prosaic real world [1], let alone in a world with muppets flying FTL spaceships, but I think the reaction would not be positive.





[1]

Thanks to the milkman for that one.

 

[pattersonautobody]

I've been reading various accounts of the filming of Return of the Jedi and one fairly minor but possibly groundbreaking "What If" stood out.

The production team was unsure who it wanted to cast as the unmasked, dying Darth Vader. Director Richard Marquand wanted a well-known British actor, possibly Laurence Oliver while George Lucas claimed that would just distract the audience and wanted someone unknown. Of course the part eventually went to the excellent Sebastian Shaw.

Let's say though that one or the other is more stubborn and refuses to agree with the other's idea. Eventually , if only to break the deadlock, someone suggests the obvious choice of having James Earl Jones play the unmasked Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Not wanting to waste anymore time on the issue, Jones is cast, filmed, and included in the movie. Besides that brief actor change Return of the Jedi comes out as the film we know today.

How would making Vader black effect Star Wars and pop culture in general?

On one hand one of the most famous fictional characters on the planet is matter-of-factly African-American, on the other hand there's the possibility that it could be read as somewhat racist that the great monster of the screen is black, especially given the mostly white protagonists of the Original Trilogy. If the prequels are filmed in the 1990s/2000s then that adds another layer to things with an African-American actor guaranteed a major role.

So, would this simple casting choice have any major effect?

Well, as others pointed out it is too confusing for audiences to have a white son and a black father. It is not scientifically impossible, but incredibly unlikely.

So, the effect would be Return of the Jedi would be considered shark jumping. It would make money, but they Star Wars would not be rebooted as it was in the 90s. It would get rebooted again now, and be a pretty big movie series.

 

[MERRICA]

Well, as others pointed out it is too confusing for audiences to have a white son and a black father. It is not scientifically impossible, but incredibly unlikely.

So, the effect would be Return of the Jedi would be considered shark jumping. It would make money, but they Star Wars would not be rebooted as it was in the 90s. It would get rebooted again now, and be a pretty big movie series.

That's James Earl Jones Twitter avatar, he can definitely pull it off.

 

[pattersonautobody]

We are talking 1982 or whatever. All people are going to see is a black man with a white son, and they'll say WTF?

 

[NHBL]

We are talking 1982 or whatever. All people are going to see is a black man with a white son, and they'll say WTF?

Even today, people would be saying "WTF" since it's not consistent with what is expected fr a father of those two to look like. Fiction needs to make some sort of sense, and if he was black, there would need to be appropriate groundwork laid for a surprise like that.

 

[pattersonautobody]

Even today, people would be saying "WTF" since it's not consistent with what is expected fr a father of those two to look like. Fiction needs to make some sort of sense, and if he was black, there would need to be appropriate groundwork laid for a surprise like that.

Exactly. Like a black aunt or uncle in episode 4 and an ongoing joke like, "You look nothing like your father."

 

[Perkeo]

Even today, people would be saying "WTF" since it's not consistent with what is expected fr a father of those two to look like. Fiction needs to make some sort of sense, and if he was black, there would need to be appropriate groundwork laid for a surprise like that.

Or makeup will make James Earl Jones look white - or at least white enough to make it plausible that he fathered two children that look caucasian.

When the mask is uncovered, he doesn't have a natural colored skin anyway, and if the force ghost has white hair...

The question is, how will that be recieved by the public, both racists and anti-racists?