What needed to happen was for someone to say "Right that's it the designs done this is what we're going to build. Don't bother trying to get extras added or this or that tweaked. Build it now and anything else will have to wait for the major refits." Preferably no later than 1962. Once construction begins it becomes politically impossible to cancel the ship.
A different Royal Navy
- Thread starter flasheart
- Start date
The reference books that I have read say that the projected air group of CVA.01 was 18 Phantoms, 18 Buccaneers, 4 AEW, 5 ASW helicopters and 2 SAR helicopters, which made a total of 47 aircraft. Or 30 OR.346 aircraft plus the same number of AEW, ASW and SAR.
Riain
Banned
I think that by the time CVA01 and 02 came into service the RN would have only received the 52 Phantoms they, maybe the 7 options as well but will already have about 90 Buccaneer. So my guess is the CAG would have a few less Phantoms and a few more Buccs, maybe 16 and 20, the Ark Royal carried 12 Phantoms and 14 Buccaneer with 2 permanently configured as maxi tankers.
Just as a matter of interest in the mid 60s the USN AEW detachments were only 3 tracer E1, the RN operated its AEW more independently than the USN.
I wouldn't be surprised if the fast jet complement ended up as 12 RN Phantoms, 12 Buccaneers and 12 USN F8s with questions asked in Parliament about why Britain is building carriers for the US Navy at the British taxpayer's expense. It looks like that's what's going to happen with the Queen Elizabeth class.
No, for a short while in the 80s as Hornets replaced A7s some carriers, JFK and Ranger definitely and I think America and another did cruises without the A7 squadrons. It had something to do with the catapult needing modification to accept the Hornet, it wasn't a big refit but the schedule meant that several carriers did cruises with a second Intruder squadrons rather than the two A7 squadrons, Marine A6 squadrons had to go to sea to make up the numbers. So aside the cats and dogs which RN carriers also had in their own form at this time USN carriers core airgroup was 48 aircraft, not the usual 60 which required 4 cats and lifts.
They did, but were removed in the 70s.
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What needed to happen was Parliament too stop carrying on about tonnage, why they cared that it was 53,000t rather than 57,000t is beyond me, and maximise the aircraft operating ability at the expense of secondary stuff like Sea Dart even though it did put them out of step with carrier design at the time.
Fine! Go ahead. Use facts and stuff to make your point!!!!
Your last point is my fall back position
Merry Christmas
Riain
Banned
Fine! Go ahead. Use facts and stuff to make your point!!!!
Your last point is my fall back position
Merry Christmas
No worries, I live to give!
Have a good one, hopefully not too hot like here.
For the last hundred years the RN has been punished for every war it won, what if it lost one and shocked the politicians out of their complacency?
1970
1970 is considered a good year for anyone who aspires to be a fast jet pilot and a terrible year for anyone who aspires to balance the books.
With all 4 RESOLUTION class submarines now operational Britain’s strategic nuclear deterrent is now solely the responsibility of the RN. Tactical nuclear capability is still provided by the RAF. Attention now turns to expanding the RN’s thus far small but very effective fleet of SSN’s.
The first of the latest C class boats HMS CHURCHILL is commissioned in July bringing the fleet up to 4 boats. The third and final boat of her class COURAGEOUS is launched in march.
The second of the upcoming S class boats SOVEREIGN is laid down in September occupying the space newly vacated by COURAGEOUS. A third boat to be named SUPERB is ordered.
By far and away the biggest day for the RN this year is the 12th of June when under immense security HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH, the largest ship ever built for the RN is launched in Belfast. The plan had been for her majesty herself to launch the ship however due to the security situation this was judged to be unwise. Instead her sister princess Margaret is given the honour.
A second ship HMS DUKE OF EDINBURGH is ordered from Cammell Laird in February and laid down in Birkenhead in November. It is intended that this ship will replace HMS ARK ROYAL.
After a short overhaul HMS VICTORIOUS returns to service for what is planned to be her last commission before being replaced by QE.
HMS HERMES is decommissioned in Portsmouth with high ranking admirals from both the RN and RAN present. The ship is moved into a drydock to begin an overhaul to bring her in line with Australian requirements. Part of the reason this is done in Portsmouth is the lack of a facility in Australia capable of carrying out the work. However already some within the Australian parliament are grumbling that whatever money was saved by acquiring HERMES as opposed to another vessel is now being slowly eaten up by the costs of refitting the ship and training the crew in another country.
The first of the new Type 82 destroyers HMS BRISTOL is launched by Swan Hunter in February. In November, a third ship to be named COVENTRY is laid down.
This year also sees a further 2 LEANDER class frigates added to the fleet. A second Type 21 frigate is ordered. This ship is assigned the name ANTELOPE.
More and more Tornado’s are being delivered to the RAF. The recent export orders have helped BAC drive down the individual unit cost. This helps the RAF to convince the government to place a second order for an additional 70 aircraft bringing the projected RAF total to 180 plus 11 development aircraft.
Since the previous defence whitepaper both the RAF and FAA have been adamant that the number of F-4 Phantoms ordered was not enough to satisfy their needs. This year sees those worries put to bed with an order announced for 100 aircraft to be divided equally between the RAF and FAA.
Of course, to pay for all these new orders something has to give. Despite the protests of the foreign office and to the utter outrage of the French government Britain withdraws from the SEPECAT Jaguar program. There is a reducing need for the aircraft and money is badly needed elsewhere. The French state that they will use the development work already undertaken as the basis for an all French aircraft.
1970 is considered a good year for anyone who aspires to be a fast jet pilot and a terrible year for anyone who aspires to balance the books.
With all 4 RESOLUTION class submarines now operational Britain’s strategic nuclear deterrent is now solely the responsibility of the RN. Tactical nuclear capability is still provided by the RAF. Attention now turns to expanding the RN’s thus far small but very effective fleet of SSN’s.
The first of the latest C class boats HMS CHURCHILL is commissioned in July bringing the fleet up to 4 boats. The third and final boat of her class COURAGEOUS is launched in march.
The second of the upcoming S class boats SOVEREIGN is laid down in September occupying the space newly vacated by COURAGEOUS. A third boat to be named SUPERB is ordered.
By far and away the biggest day for the RN this year is the 12th of June when under immense security HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH, the largest ship ever built for the RN is launched in Belfast. The plan had been for her majesty herself to launch the ship however due to the security situation this was judged to be unwise. Instead her sister princess Margaret is given the honour.
A second ship HMS DUKE OF EDINBURGH is ordered from Cammell Laird in February and laid down in Birkenhead in November. It is intended that this ship will replace HMS ARK ROYAL.
After a short overhaul HMS VICTORIOUS returns to service for what is planned to be her last commission before being replaced by QE.
HMS HERMES is decommissioned in Portsmouth with high ranking admirals from both the RN and RAN present. The ship is moved into a drydock to begin an overhaul to bring her in line with Australian requirements. Part of the reason this is done in Portsmouth is the lack of a facility in Australia capable of carrying out the work. However already some within the Australian parliament are grumbling that whatever money was saved by acquiring HERMES as opposed to another vessel is now being slowly eaten up by the costs of refitting the ship and training the crew in another country.
The first of the new Type 82 destroyers HMS BRISTOL is launched by Swan Hunter in February. In November, a third ship to be named COVENTRY is laid down.
This year also sees a further 2 LEANDER class frigates added to the fleet. A second Type 21 frigate is ordered. This ship is assigned the name ANTELOPE.
More and more Tornado’s are being delivered to the RAF. The recent export orders have helped BAC drive down the individual unit cost. This helps the RAF to convince the government to place a second order for an additional 70 aircraft bringing the projected RAF total to 180 plus 11 development aircraft.
Since the previous defence whitepaper both the RAF and FAA have been adamant that the number of F-4 Phantoms ordered was not enough to satisfy their needs. This year sees those worries put to bed with an order announced for 100 aircraft to be divided equally between the RAF and FAA.
Of course, to pay for all these new orders something has to give. Despite the protests of the foreign office and to the utter outrage of the French government Britain withdraws from the SEPECAT Jaguar program. There is a reducing need for the aircraft and money is badly needed elsewhere. The French state that they will use the development work already undertaken as the basis for an all French aircraft.
The problem perhaps being that a war that is specfically lost by the Royal Navy, would be very likely be a loss that would put the British government in a position where they could no longer afford to fund a large navy.
This thread will continue. Just been a bit busy recently.
Hoping to be able to work in a small war soon.
How about a RN Destroyer gets caught up in the Six day War /War of Attrition in 67 and gets Styx'd
Say HMS Hampshire is conducting 'peace keeping' ops gets hit by a pair of Egyptian launched weapons (fired at Isreali ships or fired at Hampshire in error and is crippled and investigations reveal that none of her weapons (Twin 4.5s, Sea cat or Sea Slug) were able to engage the Missiles
This focuses minds and gets systems like the Sea Wolf gets developed much faster during the 70s as well as the Quad launchers and VL system developed
In addition Bofors L70 guns with proximity shells (not installed OTL as the Sea Cat was selected instead) begin to make a reappearance on existing ships during the 70s and far more interest is shown in developing CIWS guns systems.
Say HMS Hampshire is conducting 'peace keeping' ops gets hit by a pair of Egyptian launched weapons (fired at Isreali ships or fired at Hampshire in error and is crippled and investigations reveal that none of her weapons (Twin 4.5s, Sea cat or Sea Slug) were able to engage the Missiles
This focuses minds and gets systems like the Sea Wolf gets developed much faster during the 70s as well as the Quad launchers and VL system developed
In addition Bofors L70 guns with proximity shells (not installed OTL as the Sea Cat was selected instead) begin to make a reappearance on existing ships during the 70s and far more interest is shown in developing CIWS guns systems.
Have a look at Shipbucket. Someone (Hood) did the honours http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6281 in illustrating all the GW Cruiser and Destroyer designs that culminated with the County class. The final heavy cruiser design is an absolute beauty with two twin 6in forward, four twin 3in midships, several Bofors, oh and Sea Slug aft with around 64 missiles. I am guessing that should these have actually made it (with a crew of around 1100) they sadly wouldn't have made it past 1980. But makes for an interesting WHIF within this scenario? Only one proposed name is known for the class, which would probably have been four ships, and that's Duke of Edinburgh. Logically I guess you could guess at the others being say Iron Duke then pick your favourite Duke although I would prefer something more martial like Black Prince. Shame in a way that they didn't go back to considering Minotaur...
How about....
HMS Duke of Edinburgh
HMS Black Prince
HMS Iron Duke
HMS Duke of Marlborough
While that is an interesting idea unfortunately ITTL we're past the 6 day war. At the moment I'm thinking along the lines of the Belize Guatamala confrontation blowing up into something bigger or a clash in Malta regarding British bases on the island.
Long term I want to have a good sized and proper naval war to allow me to use all these new toys. Hopefully without going into asb territory (ww3, Britain joins in Vietnam, ect)
1971
The RN continues to provide the UK's nuclear deterrent with its 4 R class SSBN's working in round the clock deployments of usually 3 months on station ensuring that there is always at least one boat on patrol. To ensure maximum availability all boats have two crews. This goes someway towards compensating for the decision not to procure a 5th boat.
Of the RAF's no redundant strategic bombers many have been scrapped, some have found new homes in museums or as gate guardians and some have been retained in other roles. A total of 30 Handley Page Victor's have been converted into air to air refueling tankers. These are formed into 2 squadrons of 12 aircraft and a 6 aircraft OCU. A surprisingly high number of Avro Vulcan's have been retained in service. The UK has been keeping a close eye on the performance of US forces and in particular equipment in Vietnam. The RAF has taken a particular interest in the Arc Light strikes carried out by USAF B52's. This has convinced them of the continued need for a long range heavy conventional bombing capability. To this end 3 squadrons of Vulcan's have been retained in the conventional bombing role. These aircraft have been modified with new targeting systems replacing the previous generation of systems that were considered unsuited to conventional bombing having been designed for nuclear weapons (where a miss of a few hundred meters isn't really going to affect the overall outcome).
The RN's SSN fleet continues to grow rapidly with this year seeing the addition of HMS CONQUEROR AND HMS COURAGEOUS to the fleet bringing the total up to 6 boats.
Progress on the next generation of SSN's continues with this year also seeing the launch of the first S class boat HMS SWIFTSURE and an order placed for a 4th boat to be named HMS SCEPTER.
Increasingly RN submarines are being forced to undertake "delousing" operations protecting the SSBN's from Soviet submarines that attempt to intercept and track them as they sail from Faslane.
It has now been some years since the RN last added a new SSK to the fleet. While OBERON class boats continue to be built for export no more are being constructed for the RN nor are there any current plans for new SSK's. Although the current fleet of O class boats still has many years of life left it is recognised that if there is to be a follow on or replacement class of SSK then development needs to start within the next few years. However at present budgetary restraints, a lack of available capacity to develop and build new SSK's and an unwillingness to potentially distract from the nuclear programs means that this isn't going to happen anytime soon.
In Belfast HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH continues fitting out. However work is hampered to a degree by the ongoing troubles in Northern Ireland. More than once the ship is evacuated due to bomb scares or other security incidents causing delays.
In light of this the decision to construct HMS DUKE OF EDINBURGH in Birkenhead is judged to be a sensible one. However this means that lessons learned in constructing HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH are now having to be relearned by a completely different workforce.
For now the current carrier force comprised of HMS EAGLE, HMS ARK ROYAL and HMS VICTORIOUS continue to soldier on. However serviceability issues caused by the age of the ships and limitations in the air group sizes is causing all sorts of trouble for admiralty planners.
The former HMS HERMES now known as HMAS CANBERRA completes her refit in October and undertakes familiarisation trials for her Australian crew under the watchful eye of FOST. Once these are completed the ship will sail for Australia where she will be integrated with the RAN's A4 Skyhawks that will comprise her air group.
Design work for the future ASW helicopter cruisers is now advancing at a much more rapid pace. It has been decided that these ships shall also serve as LPH's replacing HMS ALBION and HMS BULWARK. The current favoured design now resembles are small aircraft carrier carrying approximately 18 Sea King/Wessex helicopters.
Of the Type 82 Destroyers HMS BRISTOL continues fitting out while HMS SHEFFIELD is launched and 4th of class HMS BIRMINGHAM is laid down.
A program of refits begins for the first 10 LEANDER class frigates to fit them with the IKARA anti submarine missile. This is part of a major drive across the RN to upgrade its ASW capabilities to counter the increasingly large and effective soviet submarine fleet. To this end studies begin for a next generation of frigate to be designed primarily for anti submarine warfare.
Of the Type 21's first of class HMS AMAZON is launched and HMS ANTELOPE is laid down. An order is placed for a further 6 vessels of this class.
The RN continues to provide the UK's nuclear deterrent with its 4 R class SSBN's working in round the clock deployments of usually 3 months on station ensuring that there is always at least one boat on patrol. To ensure maximum availability all boats have two crews. This goes someway towards compensating for the decision not to procure a 5th boat.
Of the RAF's no redundant strategic bombers many have been scrapped, some have found new homes in museums or as gate guardians and some have been retained in other roles. A total of 30 Handley Page Victor's have been converted into air to air refueling tankers. These are formed into 2 squadrons of 12 aircraft and a 6 aircraft OCU. A surprisingly high number of Avro Vulcan's have been retained in service. The UK has been keeping a close eye on the performance of US forces and in particular equipment in Vietnam. The RAF has taken a particular interest in the Arc Light strikes carried out by USAF B52's. This has convinced them of the continued need for a long range heavy conventional bombing capability. To this end 3 squadrons of Vulcan's have been retained in the conventional bombing role. These aircraft have been modified with new targeting systems replacing the previous generation of systems that were considered unsuited to conventional bombing having been designed for nuclear weapons (where a miss of a few hundred meters isn't really going to affect the overall outcome).
The RN's SSN fleet continues to grow rapidly with this year seeing the addition of HMS CONQUEROR AND HMS COURAGEOUS to the fleet bringing the total up to 6 boats.
Progress on the next generation of SSN's continues with this year also seeing the launch of the first S class boat HMS SWIFTSURE and an order placed for a 4th boat to be named HMS SCEPTER.
Increasingly RN submarines are being forced to undertake "delousing" operations protecting the SSBN's from Soviet submarines that attempt to intercept and track them as they sail from Faslane.
It has now been some years since the RN last added a new SSK to the fleet. While OBERON class boats continue to be built for export no more are being constructed for the RN nor are there any current plans for new SSK's. Although the current fleet of O class boats still has many years of life left it is recognised that if there is to be a follow on or replacement class of SSK then development needs to start within the next few years. However at present budgetary restraints, a lack of available capacity to develop and build new SSK's and an unwillingness to potentially distract from the nuclear programs means that this isn't going to happen anytime soon.
In Belfast HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH continues fitting out. However work is hampered to a degree by the ongoing troubles in Northern Ireland. More than once the ship is evacuated due to bomb scares or other security incidents causing delays.
In light of this the decision to construct HMS DUKE OF EDINBURGH in Birkenhead is judged to be a sensible one. However this means that lessons learned in constructing HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH are now having to be relearned by a completely different workforce.
For now the current carrier force comprised of HMS EAGLE, HMS ARK ROYAL and HMS VICTORIOUS continue to soldier on. However serviceability issues caused by the age of the ships and limitations in the air group sizes is causing all sorts of trouble for admiralty planners.
The former HMS HERMES now known as HMAS CANBERRA completes her refit in October and undertakes familiarisation trials for her Australian crew under the watchful eye of FOST. Once these are completed the ship will sail for Australia where she will be integrated with the RAN's A4 Skyhawks that will comprise her air group.
Design work for the future ASW helicopter cruisers is now advancing at a much more rapid pace. It has been decided that these ships shall also serve as LPH's replacing HMS ALBION and HMS BULWARK. The current favoured design now resembles are small aircraft carrier carrying approximately 18 Sea King/Wessex helicopters.
Of the Type 82 Destroyers HMS BRISTOL continues fitting out while HMS SHEFFIELD is launched and 4th of class HMS BIRMINGHAM is laid down.
A program of refits begins for the first 10 LEANDER class frigates to fit them with the IKARA anti submarine missile. This is part of a major drive across the RN to upgrade its ASW capabilities to counter the increasingly large and effective soviet submarine fleet. To this end studies begin for a next generation of frigate to be designed primarily for anti submarine warfare.
Of the Type 21's first of class HMS AMAZON is launched and HMS ANTELOPE is laid down. An order is placed for a further 6 vessels of this class.
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