Essentially, your challenge is to come up with the most creative and brutal punishment for Germany, as a state, a nation, and a people, following its WW2 defeat. This can include foreign annexation of German territory by foreign powers, the practical enslavement of Germans by the Allies, splitting Germany into smaller statelets again, mass propaganda and public education campaigns to "de-Germanize" Germans, etc. so long as it is not ASB, and doesn't include the obvious brutal punishments (such as simply genociding all Germans or having all neighboring powers to partition all of Germany among them).
AHC: Punish Germany as harshly as possible after WW2
- Thread starter Orko
- Start date
Have Germany split into five or six different nations (E.g Hesse, Saxony, Prussia, Hannover, Bavaria) like Roosevelt watned, which will all be completely de-industrialised and forced to adopt agricultural economies to survive, a la the Morgenthau Plan. The majority of them being Soviet puppet states would also make things worse.
Also have more territorial annexations- France gets Saarland and Pfalz, Netherlands gets East Frisia and large chunks of the Rhineland, and Denmark gains Holstein for example.
Also have more territorial annexations- France gets Saarland and Pfalz, Netherlands gets East Frisia and large chunks of the Rhineland, and Denmark gains Holstein for example.
Saphroneth
Banned
The Big One, Stuart Slade, has a reasonable outcome in terms of damage. Basically Germany gets nuked flat by a B-36 force.
The novel has problems, but it's certainly a ruined Germany at the end of it.
The novel has problems, but it's certainly a ruined Germany at the end of it.
British Republic
Banned
Follow Abdul Azizs suggestion of creating a State of Israel in Germany/Austria. Although frankly the plan would only create more resentment out of Germany.
Overall I don't think pushining Germany more than OTL is a good idea, WW2 basically started directly because of how we punished Germany.
Overall I don't think pushining Germany more than OTL is a good idea, WW2 basically started directly because of how we punished Germany.
Well I believe that East Germany was no place to call home ... so that's half the country already punished.
As for the other half it wasn't so simple ... is being used as a battlefield and buffer zone for the rest of Europe and the USA in the event of the next major war a good enough punishment?
As for the other half it wasn't so simple ... is being used as a battlefield and buffer zone for the rest of Europe and the USA in the event of the next major war a good enough punishment?
It happened. Czechoslovakia, Poland, USSR but some western countries got smaller or bigger pieces of German territory.
Again it happened. Denmark, France, Norway were using POW for cleaning mines even after war. France offered some of these POW possibility to join Legion. Czechoslovakia, Poland, Soviet Union and other eastern countries were using POW and prosecuted Germans for hard labor.
Central and Eastern European countries expelled huge part of their German population.
Again basically happened. Third Reich was divided into Austria, West and East Germany.
Partially happened. Germans during WWII pursued policy to Germanize population on occupied territories from mixed marriages when one of the partner was of German stock or ancestry. It happened in Poland and Czechoslovakia for example. After war many of these proclaimed they were forced to take German nationality and citizenship. Many Poles and Czechs with such a ancestry were drafted to Wehrmacht. So propaganda and de-Germanization of these people was regular after war.
weren't there a lot of casualties during this ethnic cleansing (for example the places taken by poland)?
LordKalvert
Banned
Take the entirre East German population and ship it off to Siberian labor camps. Have them segregated by gender so the German population eventually dies out completely.
Alternatively, you can take the German woman and turn them into slavic breeding machines- have the soldiers rape them and force them to have as many babies as possible. You can adopt North Korea's three generation principle so that there is almost no Germanic blood left or breed them forever as a slave race
Alternatively, you can take the German woman and turn them into slavic breeding machines- have the soldiers rape them and force them to have as many babies as possible. You can adopt North Korea's three generation principle so that there is almost no Germanic blood left or breed them forever as a slave race
There were. Some of these even inflicted on purpose by some of German haters in command. For example Czechoslovakia had incident when troops of soldiers dislocated from western Czechoslovakia to eastern parts met in Prerov railway station 265 German, Hungarian but also Slovak refugees were killed including women and children.
Interesting fact is that commander of troops was Slovak officer, former member of Hlinka Guards, fighting Soviets as a member of Slovak Fast Division and after he was captured (or deserted?) he become zealous communist where he joined Czechoslovak Army corps. He worked in counter espionage on side of infamous Bedrich Reicin. It is possible he was also NKVD agent.
Theodore Kaufman's 'plan' in his 1941 book Germany Must Parish kind of takes the cake. Then again the idea behind his evil retarded plan wasn't even about punishment, it was based on his insane notion that those of Germanic heritage have bad genes and therefore are a defective warlike people.
Such lunacy is possible in Totalitarian states with separate political armies of sociopaths and psychopaths, but thankfully not democracies.
Such lunacy is possible in Totalitarian states with separate political armies of sociopaths and psychopaths, but thankfully not democracies.
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British Republic
Banned
Quick Question, how long would be be until Germany wants "revenge" for WW1 and WW2?
Germany after the losses in 1943 and 1944 was in no condition to even try for revenge no matter what happened.
They could make life a bit difficult for the occupying powers, but given the occupying powers all have nukes or soon will and given the morals of the 40s there was no possibility of significant resistance.
There was no possibility after Kursk of Germany rising again to fight another major European power after the war without either the WAllies or the Soviets backing them.
The plan to de-industrialize Germany itself was originally given to the Treasury Secretary by a Soviet mole. It was a good way for Stalin to keep German soldiers fighting in the West until the bitter end and to if carried out cause a Soviet backed uprising in Western Germany after the famine sets in.
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British Republic
Banned
However there is going to be a lot of Anti-American/British/French hatrid for decades to come. I agree that they would never really become a major threat apart from potentally destablising Europe.
Interesting, never knew about it.
Is that really plausible though, given what the Allies fought for? Turning a blind eye, or approving rape for purposes of "revenge" or "blowing off steam" or "soldiers will be soldiers" or other horrifying excuses is one thing, state mandated "baby factories" OTOH draws a lot of parallels to the Nazis that doing so seems far more extreme than the Allies we're familiar with.
Saphroneth
Banned
The Big One, Stuart Slade, as mentioned above - basically, every single German town with so much as one factory or production centre in it gets nuked. Berlin, Munich and one other get nine-twelve or so.
That Germany is still around and fighting hard in 1947 is a bit of a Germanwank, but then the place gets levelled by SAC over the course of one exceedingly violent day.
It's got issues, but it does reduce Germany to pretty much a pile of rubble.
If you really want to make Germany suffer, have WW3 break out. There. You have utterly destroyed the German nation when the Nukes start flying. At the same time, I have no idea why you want the Germans to suffer even more that they did in OTL. It's almost like one of those mass death ASB scenarios I occasionally see.
There are other, highly unsavory plans that make me want to puke whenever I look at them.
There are other, highly unsavory plans that make me want to puke whenever I look at them.
Have you literally lost you mind?
This is one of the sicker revenge fantasies I've come across.
This is clearly not a joke, or in reaction to other posters going over the top.
This is so far over the line there is literally no way back.
We divorce you.
To Coventry with you.
I don't think punishing Germany more severely is wise but one can certainly punish them in a different way.
Basically balkanize them and force the new German states to join a proto EU like organization along with some other states like the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy (maybe balkanize them into 2-3 parts as well), France and maybe, possibly the UK as well (though I could more likely see them withdrawing somewhere along the formation process like the USA did with the League of Nations). The big difference is that a part of alt. EU's purpose, along with European economic development, would be keeping the new German states separated. Then after they've been balkanized for a few generations and regional identities will have had a chance to develop they may not even want to reunify again, much like in Chip's TL's about a balkanized USA where any support for reunification of the United States is mostly weak and fragmented, even in it's direct successor state.
Basically balkanize them and force the new German states to join a proto EU like organization along with some other states like the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy (maybe balkanize them into 2-3 parts as well), France and maybe, possibly the UK as well (though I could more likely see them withdrawing somewhere along the formation process like the USA did with the League of Nations). The big difference is that a part of alt. EU's purpose, along with European economic development, would be keeping the new German states separated. Then after they've been balkanized for a few generations and regional identities will have had a chance to develop they may not even want to reunify again, much like in Chip's TL's about a balkanized USA where any support for reunification of the United States is mostly weak and fragmented, even in it's direct successor state.