Ukrainian independence referendum, 1991

Considering the current situation, I was quite surprised to see the results from the Ukrainian independence referendum in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991#By_region

Even on the Crimean peninsula there was a majority supporting Ukrainian independence. In some of the Eastern regions now tryng to secede, the majority was even very large (although smaller than in other parts of Ukraine). How come that so many in this area supported Ukrainian independence, while so many of them now wants to separate their area from Ukraine?
 
Because a few months prior to that (21/22 August) the Sowjetunion saw a (failed) coup-attempt in Moscow and the people didnt want to chance a second (successfull) one.
If it werent for that little fact you would be better off looking at the Numbers of the Referendum regarding the continued Existince of the USSR which gives a better picture of pro- / anti- Sowjetunion. (of cource made with presumption of strong Reforms).


Besides the Ukraine already decleard itself independend on the 24. August, the referendum was just some polish on a fait accompli.
 
But the referendum implied not just voting for or against the communist system, but also whether Ukraine should be independent from Russia. It implied that Russia lost control over areas that had been part of the Russian empire prior to the revolution. I find the voting pattern in the referendum surprising considering how polarised the opinions are at the moment.
 
They write in the Wikipedia article that voter turnout was low in the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine. Was there some form of boycott from the Russian-speaking part of the population, or can it be seen as some ambivalence as they might be against the communist system, but also against Ukrainian secession?
 
That was Kravchuk's greatest triumph. The campaign for independence was deliberately civic in nature because Ukraine was so multicultural, and because Kravchuck needed more than 50% of the vote in every region of Ukraine, lest Gorbachev threaten partition. Even Crimea voted 54% in favor, and Sevastapol 57%.
 
Considering the current situation, I was quite surprised to see the results from the Ukrainian independence referendum in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991#By_region

Even on the Crimean peninsula there was a majority supporting Ukrainian independence. In some of the Eastern regions now tryng to secede, the majority was even very large (although smaller than in other parts of Ukraine). How come that so many in this area supported Ukrainian independence, while so many of them now wants to separate their area from Ukraine?
IMHO this article provides a good overview as to why:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/war-and-poverty-threaten-ukraine-s-future/501554.html

War And Poverty Threaten Ukraine's Future

By Stephen Crowley
Jun. 04 2014 19:56
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5385-web-crowley-.jpg


Back in 1991, some months before the collapse of the Soviet Union, I saw a strange vision in the city of Donetsk: muscle-bound glam-rockers attending nationalist rallies calling for Ukrainian independence. With a closer look I realized these weren't tough guys in mascara, but coal miners, unable to wash that last bit of coal dust off of their eyelids.

When I asked these Russian-speaking miners why they wanted an independent Ukraine, they answered simply that they would "live better," economically and otherwise, if control shifted from Moscow to Kiev.

But the rally's leaders, Ukrainian nationalists who mostly hailed from western Ukraine, viewed independence quite differently. They saw it not as a means to a better life, but as an end in itself.

Indeed, returning to the Donbass only a few years after the Soviet collapse, in conditions of a deeply depressed Ukrainian economy, this coalition had clearly frayed. Even then, miners and others warned me of the danger of "fascism," a word they associated with nationalists in western Ukraine.

While much of the discussion of the ongoing conflict in Ukraine has understandably centered on Putin's role, Ukraine's story does not begin and end with Putin. Ukraine faces two steep challenges: first, to avoid civil war, and second, to avoid economic collapse.

These two dangers are interrelated. While eastern coal miners and western nationalists united to help bring down the Soviet Union, Ukraine's regional differences are long-standing and now starkly revealed. In order to survive as a unified state, Ukraine needs to recognize those regional differences constitutionally, and then embark on a path that promises to bring Ukrainians a better life.

First, consider the regional differences. While many Ukrainians now occupy a metaphorical and geographical middle ground, the country remains polarized politically between a Ukrainian-speaking west, historically rooted in the Austro-Hungarian empire and inter-war Poland, and a Russian-speaking east, long part of the Russian empire.

The ghosts of World War II haunt these regions: while nationalists in the west fought Soviet "Stalinists," Red Army soldiers from the east fought "fascists," including those from western Ukraine.

The differences are not merely historical and linguistic, but also economic. Unlike the largely agricultural west, the east is heavily industrialized, and its economy is closely tied to Russia.

Crucially, as political scientist Keith Darden has noted, the overthrow of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and his government shifted the balance of political power from east to west quite substantially: whereas 75 percent of the ministerial officials under Yanukovych came from the Russian-speaking east, under the current interim government 60 percent of officials at the ministry-level and above come from the nationalist west — regions that represent only 12 percent of Ukraine's population.

Thus while many viewed Yanukovych's downfall as a popular revolution against a corrupt president-turned-autocrat, many in the east viewed it as coup bringing an illegitimate government to power.

Those differences need not lead to a division of Ukraine, let alone a civil war. Such a war would be a catastrophe, and preventing it should be everyone's top priority. Newly elected President Petro Poroshenko should bear in mind that while conflict is inevitable, violence is not. So far he has promised a two-sided approach, seeking negotiations alongside the "anti-terror operation." Yet while the likelihood of outright civil war appears to be decreasing at present, each bloody corpse makes reconciliation that much more difficult. In the long run, negotiation and compromise is not nearly as costly as continued violence.

Yet even without the horrific prospect of civil war, enormous challenges for Ukraine remain.

While coal miners and others in the east hoped that they would live better in an independent Ukraine, economically speaking at least the reverse has been true.

While Ukraine's economy was abysmal by the Soviet Union's end, the economy of independent Ukraine has been even worse.

By 2009, Ukraine's real GDP was only 60 percent of what it was in 1989, two years before the Soviet collapse. In 2013 its GDP per capita, in terms of purchasing power, was estimated at $7,400, compared to Russia's $18,100, placing Ukraine on a par with Algeria and El Salvador.

And yet, from this lowly position, as then-interim president Oleksandr Turchynov stated back in February, "Ukraine is now in a pre-default condition and sliding into the abyss."

There are no easy answers for Ukraine's economy, but here it must not choose between east and west — in this case either Russia or Europe—but instead look to both. Like it or not, Ukraine's economy is closely linked with Russia's: not only is Ukraine dependent on Russian oil and gas, but Russia is by far Ukraine's largest single trade partner.

While many Ukrainians may wish to be free from Russian influence, it is a reality they must face. Assuming he can avoid civil war, one hopes that President-elect Poroshenko, as an experienced bargainer with business interests in Russia, can negotiate a compromise on economic relations with his Russian counterpart.

However the billionaire chocolate magnate is less well poised to confront the oligarchic and corrupt capitalism in which both Ukraine and Russia are entangled. This is what so many of the activists of Kiev's Maidan Square were hoping to bring to an end, in part by establishing closer ties with the EU, with its emphasis on the "rule of law."

Yet Ukrainians should be wary of another easy promise of a better life. The shortcomings of the EU are now clear, and include extremism, corruption and disillusionment in a number of new member states.

Moreover, as acting prime minister, Yatsenyuk acknowledged, the European Union's Association Agreement raises fears of its potentially negative impact on Ukraine's industrial regions, especially in the east. The EU's close partner, the IMF, will provide a temporary bailout of the Ukrainian economy, but only on the condition of austerity measures, combustible material when added to an already explosive political situation.

There is no single or simple answer for Ukraine. But any solution must involve the melding of east and west, both within the country and without, and provide a tangible path towards a better life, the one thing that all Ukrainians might unite behind.

Stephen Crowley, professor of politics and chair of Russian and East European studies at Oberlin College, is currently summer research scholar at the Kennan Institute of the Wilson Center in Washington, DC.
 
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Those polls were conducted months before Yanukovich was overthrown by what many in places like Crimea saw as "West Ukrainian fascists". Needless to say this was a very polorizing event for Ukrainian society that went as far as breaking up whole families. New polls conducted by Pew Poll Organization after the annexation showed that Crimeans supported it and furthermore belived the Crimean referendum to be free and fair: http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08...rnance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/
 
Those polls were conducted months before Yanukovich was overthrown by what many in places like Crimea saw as "West Ukrainian fascists". Needless to say this was a very polorizing event for Ukrainian society that went as far as breaking up whole families. New polls conducted by Pew Poll Organization after the annexation showed that Crimeans supported it and furthermore belived the Crimean referendum to be free and fair: http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08...rnance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/

While I do not doubt that the majority of Crimeans supported annexation in 2014, especially once it had become a fait accompli (as it really had before the referendum), still: if you really take the overwhelming numbers in both the referendum and the Pew poll seriously--if you really think that the ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars who are still a substantial minority in Crimea were almost as unanimous in supporting the annexation as the Russians--if you really think that the conditions for either free elections or free and frank answers to pollsters exist in Crimea in 2014--well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
 

And things were quite different in Ukraine then compared to now.

The question of popular support is meaningless when looking at the 2014 referendum. The region was annexed because Putin wanted it annexed, not because there was a want or need of such action by Crimea.
This is entirely true.
 
While I do not doubt that the majority of Crimeans supported annexation in 2014, especially once it had become a fait accompli (as it really had before the referendum), still: if you really take the overwhelming numbers in both the referendum and the Pew poll seriously--if you really think that the ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars who are still a substantial minority in Crimea were almost as unanimous in supporting the annexation as the Russians--if you really think that the conditions for either free elections or free and frank answers to pollsters exist in Crimea in 2014--well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
With all due respect, I do trust sources like Pew Polls even if their results are not what I personally would have wanted to see. If you dismiss the results of the Crimean polls because you belive "conditions for frank answears to pollsters don't exist" (presumably due to presence of Russian Marines) than by same logic you must dismiss results from the rest of Ukraine due to presence of Right Sector and the like that go about beating up opposition (opposition MP Nestor Shufrich was beaten in Odessa just few days ago on the steps of the Regional Administration building) leaving you with no data sets at all. Ergo, I go with data provided by independant polsters rather than trying to dismiss them whenever they provide an amswear I don't like to see.

So feel free to sell me that bridge.

P.S.: I think there may also be a miscommunication between you and me. I said that according to Pew Poll vast majority of Crimeans think that the refferendum was free and fair, not that I belive this. I think the results might have been different if it was conducted after a preperation of several months with Crimeans given a chance to carfully think things over instead of having the elections carried out in a matter of weeks while billboards like this were put up:

188318844.jpg


(though TBH the "yes" vote would still probably win then)
 
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With all due respect, I do trust sources like Pew Polls even if their results are not what I personally would have wanted to see.

The point is not the honesty or competence of the Pew pollsters--I don't doubt that at all. The point is the ability of the respondents to answer freely. (And that includes a belief *whether justified or not* that the authorities will find out how they responded.)
 
The point is not the honesty or competence of the Pew pollsters--I don't doubt that at all. The point is the ability of the respondents to answer freely. (And that includes a belief *whether justified or not* that the authorities will find out how they responded.)
See my edited post. Ukrainian authorities are comming down equally hard on presived seperatist or pro-Russian sentiment so by that logic you must dismiss all polls from mainland Ukraine too.
 
See my edited post. Ukrainian authorities are comming down equally hard on presived seperatist or pro-Russian sentiment so by that logic you must dismiss all polls from mainland Ukraine too.

Absolutely! Polls have to be taken with a grain of salt in even the most democratic countries--it seems a considerable number of Scottish voters did not want to say they were against independence even though in fact they voted No. In authoritarian countries--to some extent Ukraine, to a greater extent Russia--they have to be taken with even greater skepticism.
 
Absolutely! Polls have to be taken with a grain of salt in even the most democratic countries--it seems a considerable number of Scottish voters did not want to say they were against independence even though in fact they voted No. In authoritarian countries--to some extent Ukraine, to a greater extent Russia--they have to be taken with even greater skepticism.
Than I think we've reached an impass. Myself, I trust independant & reliable polling organisations to actually do their job (you can, if I recall my statistic classis correctly, account for and compenstate for BS answears on polls) rather than just assume that "there is probably this large silent majority that feels otherwise but isn't showing up in polls".

For Scottland, if I recall correctly several months ago polls showed it would vote "yes" but more resent polls showed "no".

Edit: checking the wiki page on the subject of the 2014 Scottish Refferendum, nearly all polls listed there & carried out over the last few years had the "No" option in the lead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014
 
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When I asked these Russian-speaking miners why they wanted an independent Ukraine, they answered simply that they would "live better," economically and otherwise, if control shifted from Moscow to Kiev.

Why did they believe it would be better? The economy of Eastern Ukraine is closely tied to Russia and it seems obvious that they would not benefit from a new border here.
 
Than I think we've reached an impass. Myself, I trust independant & reliable polling organisations to actually do their job (you can, if I recall my statistic classis correctly, account for and compenstate for BS answears on polls) rather than just assume that "there is probably this large silent majority that feels otherwise but isn't showing up in polls".

For Scottland, if I recall correctly several months ago polls showed it would vote "yes" but more resent polls showed "no".

Edit: checking the wiki page on the subject of the 2014 Scottish Refferendum, nearly all polls listed there & carried out over the last few years had the "No" option in the lead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

But none of the ones in September 2014 had No leading by anything like the 10.6 points it actually got.

Anyway, my point is not so much the inaccuracy of polls in fully democratic countries as that if even they can be considerably off we must *a fortiori* view with caution polls taken in countries that are to some degree or another authoritarian. This has nothing to do with the competence of the pollsters. The inability of the respondents to give a completely unintimidated response may simply be beyond any pollster's control.
 
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