Operation Sea Lion: The Invasion Itself

you might look into the 1974 Sandhurst wargame, which presupposes a successful initial landing - 330,000 men. It gives the Royal Navy the Stupids just to get the troops across, then assumes everything goes normally from there

The Army has the whole situation in hand, with over 300,000 German men killed or captured, in 5 days

edit:

a report of the wargame:

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/seelowe.txt
 

sharlin

Banned
For the 74 wargame didn't they basically have the RN all call in sick for the first few days with a dreadful case of 'can't be arsed' before someone in Whitehall yelled at them.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The Rhine is, essentially, an enclosed waterway. It's calm, smooth, and doesn't have much in the way of waves - except in the occasional flood.
As such, for a Rhine River Barge to have any meaningful loaded freeboard would be actively wasteful. Maybe give it a foot - it's not like there'll be any problems, motor boat wash isn't a major thing they have to handle in the Rhine.

The Thames (from which the Thames river barges come) is a rather less enclosed waterway - and Thames barges traded from the Thames itself out to northern Europe, and did so under sail. For them, being able to handle high weather was advantageous. As such, Thames barges had rather more freeboard, and they had leeboards specifically to avoid overturn.

For the average Rhine barge to have significant loaded freeboard would be actively wasteful (so it will have to be generated - probably by not loading most of the barges very much, and that will impact stability.)
 
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sharlin

Banned
just putting my popcorn down for a moment to add my bit.

one should note the cute wooden boxes mounted on the not so pointy end of the barges........judging by the sailor in the pic we might have 2 feet of freeboard,and judging by the amount of rudder out of the water they are unloaded barges we can say maybe a foot of freeboard before those cute boxes make like a plow and slam into a wall of water.interesting.

now the "landing craft" .take note that the halftrack is being guided down 2 separate ramps which are obviously not attached to the craft ,which terminate at 2 distinct mounds to create a smooth exit to the beach....no doubt created by the group of men casually standing to the right.......should work great with a handful of old men hiding in the bushes with a rifle or two.......hmmmmm

so very much like the D-day landing craft.......ya sure!!!!!:rolleyes:

A very good point, at full load a Rhine barge would probably have a waterline level of just below the bottom of the painted white bit, which is as you said about a foot to the top. Thats 30cm or 12 inches which is perfectly fine in nice flat rivers like the Rhine, but anything resembling a choppy sea and they would have issues.

Basically the Rhine barges as invasion ships = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTVPPTV-bQM And this is without the RN going 'Ahem...' before giving them a gentle tap on the shoulder with shells ranging from 20mm to 6 inch (the R class ship would have probably been Stuka bait) and the RAF going TALLY HO! (not whilst drinking lead paint or beaning themselves in the face with a cricket bat as some folks seem to think they MUST do in WW2) but strafing and bombing, and then the beach defences opening fire...

Okay thats the new thing for the piniped. Ambitious! But Rubbish!
 
The Churchill story comes from Invasion: Alternative History of the German Invasion of England, July 1940 (Greenhill Military Paperback) by Kenneth Macksey

I suggest comparing The Gospels According To Fleming with Notes on German Preparation for Invasion of the United Kingdom, MI 14, 2nd edn. January 1942, especially appendix XXXIII (this is a set of apocrypha used by the Al-Shelion sect of Seelaam). If you look on page 237 of said Gospels it states that "interference by the RAF would reduce port handling capacity by 50%" and an allowance is made for this in the figures. This is despite the fact that some sort of air superiority was a prerequisite for any attempted invasion.

The tonnages given allow a huge reduction in port efficiency due to damage and RAF interference, as in 1939 a single ship could unload 700 tons a day in a fully equipped port operating at full capacity.
Fleming says 3,300 tons a day was needed for 11 divisions but only 9 divisions were coming by sea, in three echelons. The first echelon would include the assault forces, backed up by the second echelon which was to arrive by the evening of S+1. The third echelon would arrive on succeeding days. The 11th division would not be arriving until an airfield had been captured and the runway fixed. The 10th division was a parachute division. The total of 11 divisions included six light infantry divisions (mountain, jager, and parachute) which had lower supply requirements than normal divisions. Only when all 11 divisions had landed and all three of their echelons had arrived would they come close to needing the 3,300 tons of supplies. Even then, they would be expected to forage to provide some of their requirements. The full text of the calculations will be published in due course, after which I will fill in the rest of the details.

The mulberry harbour only unloaded 6,000 out of 54,000 tons a day of supplies- the majority of the rest came off the beaches. American historians even argue that the Mulberry was a huge waste of resources, but I don't agree as it could still be used on bad weather days (when beaches were useless), and it allowed ships to sail directly to Normandy from America instead of going to Britain first (where a huge bottleneck was created by ships having to unload then reload supplies there).

The invasion fleet was composed of about 2,000 barges and over 1,000 escorts, transports, tugs, and other types of boats and ships, nearly all of which were armed in some way or other. The auxiliary gunboats (of which there were 30) performed well against Russian destroyers, though of course there was nothing (apart from the U-boats, channel guns, mines and aircraft used together) that could match a cruiser.

The Germans tried several (increasingly sophisticated) designs for unloading ramps but the barges look very like landing craft when you use pictures of the later type of converted barges. They had about twice the space available to the Allies on the beaches so they could land more barges simultaneously.

Yes, the Luftwaffe had a lot to do, and they were going to do it all with one aircraft at dawn on S-day. They were too busy drinking schnapps to bother trying to use the other aircraft on days leading up to S-day or to read the plan they had set out to enable them to get all the tasks done within the allotted time.

So Germany will invade Britain on 3000 tonnes a day of supplies but The Allies needed 54000 tonnes a day to do the reverse.

And even allowing for the reduced opposition, 3000 tonnes a day to Rommels forces in Africa was only achieved in three months out of 17 during the North Africa campaign - and that was when the ports were controlled.
 
you might look into the 1974 Sandhurst wargame, which presupposes a successful initial landing - 330,000 men. It gives the Royal Navy the Stupids just to get the troops across, then assumes everything goes normally from there

The Army has the whole situation in hand, with over 300,000 German men killed or captured, in 5 days

edit:

a report of the wargame:

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/seelowe.txt

Not quite, it's only 90,000 men or so - the first wave of the planned 330,000.
 
hmmm

So what causes the Germans to go ahead with Sealion?

I tend to agree it would make sense to launch them at the same time, as the first wave (in Britain) would likely make landfall largely intact and throwing in the the RAF would be pinned by the initial Luftwaffe waves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Catherine
ie. Operation sail a British force into the Baltic and hope for the best:rolleyes:

I was looking at the British implementing something like Catherine prior to Westerbrung, which might I think butterfly the operation entirely and would expose the RN squadron to fairly determined air attack and likely reinforce the German belief that airpower trumps naval power. Combined with the Kriegsmarine surface forces been intact would this be enough for the Germans to have a go at Sealion and Green?

I was proposing the British go ahead with Operation Catherine over in the Operation Sealion and Case Green thread and would that be enough to get der Fuhrer to order the lunacy to go ahead? (Im trying to see what conditions are needed for Green, which was supposed to occur with Sealion in tandem).
 
So what causes the Germans to go ahead with Sealion?

The Luftwaffe doing a bit better in the months before september 1940, for instance. Enough to lull the German decision makers into believing that they have air superiority or nearly so. Oh, sorry, I have already said that, verbosely.

Another idea might be a freak accident. The Cabinet has a work dinner, and half of them including Churchill die of botulin (that damn pork pie). It's not as if the British are surrendering for that, but there are signs of panic, Hitler decides this is a godsend like God having Frederick's enemies die, and gives the green light. The notion would be that the panic would spread and force the British government to sue for peace, not that the operation would work from the military POV.

Or you can go back and create some much earlier POD. Many work on the evacuation of Dunkerque, for instance.
 
haha

The Luftwaffe doing a bit better in the months before september 1940, for instance. Enough to lull the German decision makers into believing that they have air superiority or nearly so. Oh, sorry, I have already said that, verbosely.

Another idea might be a freak accident. The Cabinet has a work dinner, and half of them including Churchill die of botulin (that damn pork pie). It's not as if the British are surrendering for that, but there are signs of panic, Hitler decides this is a godsend like God having Frederick's enemies die, and gives the green light. The notion would be that the panic would spread and force the British government to sue for peace, not that the operation would work from the military POV.

Or you can go back and create some much earlier POD. Many work on the evacuation of Dunkerque, for instance.

Yes apart from the Luftwaffe doing better, you somewhat elaborated on that point on a post or two :D

But what do you think of something like Catherine as a POD for it? Keeping the KN mostly intact and reinforcing the view on air vs naval in Goering/Hitlers mind.
 
most plausible reason for this to go ahead:the pharmacy mixes up the prescriptions and hitler gets the uppers while goering gets the downers.:eek:


heh....it's just as likely as any other reason:cool:
 

REALLY minor quibble, but Churchill's death scene is actually from the book "If Britain Had Fallen" by Norman Longmate (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1848326475?pc_redir=1403252839&robot_redir=1. OP might find it worthwhile to see a description of how Sealion could play out (even if it implausibly has a near-effortless German victory), but it's an interesting read if you're willing to turn off you brain when needed, especially when Longmate discusses the occupation of the Channel Islands.
 

Riain

Banned
The thing about Kenneth Macksey's book is that the invasion of Britain occurs in July before the fall of France. So while invading Britain half the French Army is rallying at the Wehrmacht's rear.
 
There is a quote somewhere:

"I did not say they can't come, but I said they can't come by sea".

The sticky part is of course to get anything meaningful across. Comparing Sea Lion to Overlord is ... <loss of words>

Of course 1940 is not 1944, but the amount of tonnage to be moved is still huge.

Even if RN is getting a beating by LW (which is not out of the question) and RAF is not impacting the battle in any major way (RAF bombing was not great due to lack of suitable machines) the logistics will still mitigate against any success.

All of that said, if we turn to the OP, and land a sufficient huge force AND imagine that it is possible to keep the force (300,000 is a lot of logistics) supplied, then what?

Brooke was not greatly optimistic as Battle of France left the cupboard rather bare.

Old men with old rifles might be Volksturm instead.

If we combine this with Dynamo never happened, we do have a case in point.

Although not necessarily a good comparison, the war in Spain showed that it was possible to support Franco by air only (as the Republicans had the navy).

So, IF somebody can get them across, it is not a given that Britain will do great.

Ivan
 

sharlin

Banned
Aye Sealion could have gone ahead but there's so many if's, buts, maybes, X, Y, Z and FNNRK (I dunno either) as well as pre war PODs etc having to happen to make it plausable that it is just basically ASB unless you want to split hairs and go 'maaaaaaaaaaaybe if they did this, and then this, then this happened, and this, this too, oh and this, oh and we had this happen in 1936 that no one knew about, AND this..' then yes it might be plausable. But the reality is that if you go by OTL, and Hitler going LAUNCH DAS SEELOWE! (possibly whilst stomping around his office like the chap in this vid whilst some blond eyed, blue haired SS belt out the song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlZrFE0bmUw ) then it would be met with disaster, even if the Luftwaffle could force the RAF to pull back.
 
To be fair, If I had said a year ago Putin would invade Crimea, youd call it ASB or implausible.

Well, not ASB, but very implausible, surely. But that's a general problem with any alternate history. The fall of Norway in 1940 also was extremely unlikely. Nobody can really say "this surely could not have happened".

Yet we can say what is unlikely, very unlikely, or sealion-like-unlikely. Then if there is a possibility of a reality check - like in the case of Crimea or Norway - we can only accept that check.
If there is no such possibility, as with Eumetopias Jubatus... well, then it depends on our tastes. I usually prefer going with the chances, others might like going with the more bizarre story.

As a general remark, note that the history of the early years of WWII already includes a series of unlikely lucky throws of the dice for the Germans. Hitler was a brinksman and a gambler, and he was lucky - initially, and in any case, luck is rarely a replacement for deeper pockets on the green baize. In the long run, pockets will win.
Adding yet another one gigantic stroke of luck for the Nazies, at the level of four sixes with four dice, is an additional layer of unlikelihood, per se.

Finally note that it is one thing to say that something is unlikely from a political and diplomatic POV, but not, technically and resource-wise, impossible. This would apply to Crimea. It is another kettle of fish to point out that something can't be achieved with the resources and forces at hand, regardless of the politics or other soft factors. This would apply to you know what.
 
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