Alternate Wikipedia Infoboxes

[Dorozhand]

Alternate Mexican-American War

 

[herricks]

I suppose I can offer my assistance if you need. PM me what you need or want help with.

i've figured out how to do everything except changing the picture that you want to post

 

[lord caedus]

i've figured out how to do everything except changing the picture that you want to post

You generally have to just put a placeholder image (preferably one with a similar shape) in the image section, then paste the image you want to put in over the placeholder. Use an image editing program (Paint.net is fantastic and it's free) to resize the image you want to place in if it's too large since it will be of much better quality than just using MS Paint to shrink the image since Paint tends to make a ton of compression artifacts in images when you shrink or resize them.

 

[Callan]

This one is pretty much self-explanatory.

As for this, the Scottish assembly was he result of a successful referendum in 1981 created as part of a confidence & supply deal between Labour and the SNP. (Just like the OTL one in 1979). Willie Whitelaw reluctantly gives the Assembly some tax-raising powers as promised by Alec Douglas-Home in the referendum campaign. The Assembly proves to be a catalyst for more Regional Assemblies over the next 20 years. Here, John Smith only agrees to leave Westminster Politics with the promise of new Labour leader leader Hattersley that he can return to the frontbenches in a decade. Teddy Taylor only agrees to lead the Scottish Tories due to losing his seat in the 1981 election. (As he did in the OTL 1979 one)

TL-74
UK General Election, February 1974
UK General Election, October 1974
UK General Election, 1978 & Canadian Federal Election 1979
US Presidential Elections, 1976 and 1980
Canadian Federal Election 1980 & UK General Election 1981

 

[Utgard96]

Supermac never said "events, dear boy, events". What he actually said when asked what was the hardest part of the PM's job was "the opposition of events".

 

[Callan]

Supermac never said "events, dear boy, events". What he actually said when asked what was the hardest part of the PM's job was "the opposition of events".

I know Macmillan didn't say the quote in my sig (though I'm not sure if he said the one you've got either).To be honest it just seemed apt for AH. Have you got any opinion on my TL?

 

[Utgard96]

I know Macmillan didn't say the quote in my sig (though I'm not sure if he said the one you've got either).To be honest it just seemed apt for AH. Have you got any opinion on my TL?

Well, it's certainly shaping up to be interesting, and any TL that avoids Thatcher becoming PM (so far, anyway) is going to get my approval. Oh, and a Kennedy getting elected in 1980? Well, that's Life 0, Tippecanoe 2.

 

[herricks]

You generally have to just put a placeholder image (preferably one with a similar shape) in the image section, then paste the image you want to put in over the placeholder. Use an image editing program (Paint.net is fantastic and it's free) to resize the image you want to place in if it's too large since it will be of much better quality than just using MS Paint to shrink the image since Paint tends to make a ton of compression artifacts in images when you shrink or resize them.

i got it done. damn it takes a while to do these

 

[naraht]

i got it done. damn it takes a while to do these

Couple of quick questions here.
1) What was the Africa part of the war like?
2) What land did the US cede to Mexico that wasn't already claimed by Mexico?

 

[naraht]

Alternate Mexican-American War

So the Mexican Navy drove off the American Navy and the Americans only fought on land after that? (and never made the OTL US/Mexican border)

 

[herricks]

Couple of quick questions here.
1) What was the Africa part of the war like?
2) What land did the US cede to Mexico that wasn't already claimed by Mexico?

1.) It was a brief British campaign to take over Liberia which ITTL was still in US control

2.) the Nueces & Pecos rivers in Texas as the boundary. ITTL Mexico lost most major engagements that it fought alone & was on the brink of collapse but Britain pulled off a large enough victory at Syracuse (plus Toronto, Rome, Portsmouth, St. Augustine, the entire ocean, San Fransico, which was part of US since 1836, & many other places) to force the US to end the war.

 

[naraht]

1.) It was a brief British campaign to take over Liberia which ITTL was still in US control

2.) the Nueces & Pecos rivers in Texas as the boundary. ITTL Mexico lost most major engagements that it fought alone & was on the brink of collapse but Britain pulled off a large enough victory at Syracuse (plus Toronto, Rome, Portsmouth, St. Augustine, the entire ocean, San Fransico, which was part of US since 1836, & many other places) to force the US to end the war.

1) OK (The independence date of Liberia I can easily imaging changing)
2) How did the USA get San Francisco in 1836? And I have a hard time imagining Britain running the table like this...

 

[Dorozhand]

So the Mexican Navy drove off the American Navy and the Americans only fought on land after that? (and never made the OTL US/Mexican border)

The PoD is that Santa Anna dies before he can assume the presidency. The Siete Leyes and Centralism is butterflied and the 1824 Constitution is maintained. This prevents the Texas, Rio Grande, and Yucatan rebellions and puts Mexico in a much better position. Without Santa Anna causing chaos and starting a precedent of military men usurping the presidency all the time, Mexico's republic remains stable.

This stability results in a Mexican military that advances on par with the rest of the world. One of the reasons Mexico lost the war IOTL is the inferiority of their artillery. Mexico's navy benefits in kind, and ships are purchased from France and Britain in the 1830s.

In 1842, Mexico undergoes a civil war between conservatives and liberals, similar to the Reform War which in our timeline occurred later. The Mexican politicians, states, and army are divided, but the liberals come out victorious in 1844. The Catholic Church's power is broken.

Nicolas Bravo serves a full six year term, during which Mexico's economy and military power grows significantly, and the country is afforded some breathing room to develop. Mariano Arista becomes president in 1850.

In 1850, gold is discovered in Alta California, and prospectors from the US and Mexico flood into the territory to try and seek fortune. Later that year, a group of American settlers, after a confrontation with Mexican authorities, declare the California Republic. Mexico suppresses it, and the US, under president Henry Clay, uses it as Casus Belli to declare war.

The US Army marches across the rocky mountains and through New Mexico in an attempt to capture California. These forces are bogged down in the rugged country and Navajo raids dwindle the numbers futher. The US cavalry captures and loots Santa Fe (including the city's cathedral) on its way westwards, and this is used as propaganda by Mexico. Around this time the first catholics begin to desert.

When an attempt is made to land in the Los Angeles area by sea, the Mexican Pacific Fleet, based from Guaymas, engages and defeats the US fleet and the landing army is defeated fighting the defenders of Los Angeles and is destroyed. After the Mexican regular army gets to Alta California, it fights American forces in the Great Valley Campaign, dislodging them after several hard fought battles.

In Texas, the invading US armies face steadfast and unified defense under talented generals like Pedro Maria de Anaya, Nicolas Bravo, Rafael Vasquez, Juan Alvarez, and Diego Muzquiz (an alternate son of Melchor Muzquiz). After some initial victories, the Americans are disastrously routed in the battles of Seguin, Cuero, and San Marcos. The politically unified officer corps, the better Mexican artillery, better military and political leadership in general, and the support of Texan citizens, allows a much better performance than OTL.

An American attempt to take Corpus Christi by sea fails, and the Mexican Navy again triumphs against a US naval force off the coast of Tamaulipas. Mexican victory at the Battle of Altamira prevents a planned American landing in the south of the country and breaks the US Navy in the gulf. It remains the largest naval battle fought in the Americas for nearly a century.

The Batallon de San Patricio is formed from Irishmen in the US army which desert in the hundreds.

After the war, the US pays an indemnity and reaffirms the Adams-Onis border. Alta California becomes enormously profitable, and is soon after settled extensively by returning soldiers, who are given lands there.

 

[herricks]

1) OK (The independence date of Liberia I can easily imaging changing)
2) How did the USA get San Francisco in 1836? And I have a hard time imagining Britain running the table like this...

ITTL the US intervened in the Texas Revolution following the Goliad (in TTL Refugio), & Alamo Massacres helping Texas secure independence & taking Alta California north of the 36°30′ parallel (or the Missouri Compromise line). Well the US did have multiple victories against Britain but since the majority of its troops were sent against Mexico (which it though it could push out of the war easier & then turn fully on Britain), & many more were garrisoning the coasts after many raids by the Royal Navy the the size of the forces were much more equal. early in the war the US invaded Ontario through Niagara but withdrew cause of lack of a good supply line, then Britain invaded through Detroit & pushed to about halfway in between Toledo & Cleveland before getting drove back in multiple defeats, the third time the US invaded through both areas & made it to Toronto where a long drawn out battle took place as both armies were almost equal in size but a severe miscalculation in the size of a British relief force coming towards the battle caused the US to get defeated badly & retreat.

Britain reinvaded through northern New York (where not much had happened & was lightly defended) & US met them & were defeated at Rome. at the same time as the battle a smaller force invaded Buffalo & helped trap the main US army in that theater in Syracuse where it surrendered after a siege.

US reinforcements were kept away with a successful British attack on St. Augustine, semi successful offensive through Maine reaching Portsmouth, NH, & a failed attack on Long Island

 

[naraht]

The PoD is that Santa Anna dies before he can assume the presidency. The Siete Leyes and Centralism is butterflied and the 1824 Constitution is maintained. This prevents the Texas, Rio Grande, and Yucatan rebellions and puts Mexico in a much better position. Without Santa Anna causing chaos and starting a precedent of military men usurping the presidency all the time, Mexico's republic remains stable.

This stability results in a Mexican military that advances on par with the rest of the world. One of the reasons Mexico lost the war IOTL is the inferiority of their artillery. Mexico's navy benefits in kind, and ships are purchased from France and Britain in the 1830s.

In 1842, Mexico undergoes a civil war between conservatives and liberals, similar to the Reform War which in our timeline occurred later. The Mexican politicians, states, and army are divided, but the liberals come out victorious in 1844. The Catholic Church's power is broken.

Nicolas Bravo serves a full six year term, during which Mexico's economy and military power grows significantly, and the country is afforded some breathing room to develop. Mariano Arista becomes president in 1850.

In 1850, gold is discovered in Alta California, and prospectors from the US and Mexico flood into the territory to try and seek fortune. Later that year, a group of American settlers, after a confrontation with Mexican authorities, declare the California Republic. Mexico suppresses it, and the US, under president Henry Clay, uses it as Casus Belli to declare war.

The US Army marches across the rocky mountains and through New Mexico in an attempt to capture California. These forces are bogged down in the rugged country and Navajo raids dwindle the numbers futher. The US cavalry captures and loots Santa Fe (including the city's cathedral) on its way westwards, and this is used as propaganda by Mexico. Around this time the first catholics begin to desert.

When an attempt is made to land in the Los Angeles area by sea, the Mexican Pacific Fleet, based from Guaymas, engages and defeats the US fleet and the landing army is defeated fighting the defenders of Los Angeles and is destroyed. After the Mexican regular army gets to Alta California, it fights American forces in the Great Valley Campaign, dislodging them after several hard fought battles.

In Texas, the invading US armies face steadfast and unified defense under talented generals like Pedro Maria de Anaya, Nicolas Bravo, Rafael Vasquez, Juan Alvarez, and Diego Muzquiz (an alternate son of Melchor Muzquiz). After some initial victories, the Americans are disastrously routed in the battles of Seguin, Cuero, and San Marcos. The politically unified officer corps, the better Mexican artillery, better military and political leadership in general, and the support of Texan citizens, allows a much better performance than OTL.

An American attempt to take Corpus Christi by sea fails, and the Mexican Navy again triumphs against a US naval force off the coast of Tamaulipas. Mexican victory at the Battle of Altamira prevents a planned American landing in the south of the country and breaks the US Navy in the gulf. It remains the largest naval battle fought in the Americas for nearly a century.

The Batallon de San Patricio is formed from Irishmen in the US army which desert in the hundreds.

After the war, the US pays an indemnity and reaffirms the Adams-Onis border. Alta California becomes enormously profitable, and is soon after settled extensively by returning soldiers, who are given lands there.

I agree that getting rid of Santa Anna would help *any* country.

However, Mexico had already seen more Chaos in its leadership by the election of Santa Anna than the United States saw in its first century. As long as Pedraza is forced from office, Mexico has definitely started down it's *ugly* path of heads of state.

I agree that some of the rebellions will be stopped, but do policies keep there from being a *large* number of English speaking slave holders in Tejas?

Even with Mexico being fortunate, the United States is *still* the richer power and like iOTL likely to remain tipped toward the Navy in spending more than any other power than Britain.

Why would the Texan citizens support the Mexicans, unless it is a significantly different group than OTL. Simply having the Constitution of 1824 isn't going to turn an Alt-Sam Houston into someone supporting the Mexican Government over the US one.

Why do you have the Pacific fleet coming out of Guaymas? The city would seem to be much to small to be the base for the Pacific fleet over historical cities farther south such as Manzanillo.

Can the Americans have a tougher fight in Mexico? Absolutely. The US Navy being swept from both the Gulf and the Pacific, I *really* don't think so. (Note, iOTL, what is the most significant Mexican Naval (ship vs. ship) victory?)

 

[naraht]

ITTL the US intervened in the Texas Revolution following the Goliad (in TTL Refugio), & Alamo Massacres helping Texas secure independence & taking Alta California north of the 36°30′ parallel (or the Missouri Compromise line). Well the US did have multiple victories against Britain but since the majority of its troops were sent against Mexico (which it though it could push out of the war easier & then turn fully on Britain), & many more were garrisoning the coasts after many raids by the Royal Navy the the size of the forces were much more equal. early in the war the US invaded Ontario through Niagara but withdrew cause of lack of a good supply line, then Britain invaded through Detroit & pushed to about halfway in between Toledo & Cleveland before getting drove back in multiple defeats, the third time the US invaded through both areas & made it to Toronto where a long drawn out battle took place as both armies were almost equal in size but a severe miscalculation in the size of a British relief force coming towards the battle caused the US to get defeated badly & retreat.

Britain reinvaded through northern New York (where not much had happened & was lightly defended) & US met them & were defeated at Rome. at the same time as the battle a smaller force invaded Buffalo & helped trap the main US army in that theater in Syracuse where it surrendered after a siege.

US reinforcements were kept away with a successful British attack on St. Augustine, semi successful offensive through Maine reaching Portsmouth, NH, & a failed attack on Long Island

I just have a hard time imagining the US continuing to keep troops in Mexico when US Ports and Land is being invaded by the British. The Mexicans were by *far* the weaker power.

 

[herricks]

I just have a hard time imagining the US continuing to keep troops in Mexico when US Ports and Land is being invaded by the British. The Mexicans were by *far* the weaker power.

well remember that this would be before their were any significant railroads to move forces quickly. before the big war ending offensive the US had two larger armies in Mexico, one in New York, & three much smaller ones in Maine, the Oregon Country, & California. Maine & Oregon wer pretty much stalemates as both sides didn't really have the means to focus on so many. California started out ok but a defeat by Mexico near Los Angeles & a bigger more catastrophic one by the British later on at San Francisco pretty much left it for the enemys. the US did have some wins against British raids besides on Long Island, a smaller victory on Galveston Island & a very large on at New Orleans. the US just found itself overstretched with usually bad supply lines especially since nearly all of it had to travel overland because of Britain ruling the waves.

the Mexicans were weaker thats why early half of the S's forces were moving against it but bad supply lines & bloody battles kept progress fairly slow, plus the first 6 months or so was pushing the Mexicans back out of Texas due to them attacking the US by surprise after the US had already started fighting Britain. Britain did help a lot in Mexico about 2/3's through the war by landing a division of troops in Tampico that joined up with a Mexican army there, defeating one of the US's larger armies north of the city then besieging & capturing all but a couple thousand at Aldama.

 

[Dorozhand]

I just have a hard time imagining the US continuing to keep troops in Mexico when US Ports and Land is being invaded by the British. The Mexicans were by *far* the weaker power.

I wouldn't say "by far". Their main achilles heel was bad artillery along with political instability caused by incompetent leaders. Mexico had some good generals, but they often couldn't coordinate their forces due to the political divisions and bickering of the officers. Fix those two and Mexico's army is better off tenfold.

 

[Arkhangelsk]

I wouldn't say "by far". Their main achilles heel was bad artillery along with political instability caused by incompetent leaders. Mexico had some good generals, but they often couldn't coordinate their forces due to the political divisions and bickering of the officers. Fix those two and Mexico's army is better off tenfold.

Not to mention that even OTL, Mexico had a decent navy. The reason it never amounted to much is because Santa Anna in all his wisdom sold the two largest steamers right before the war began. More blunders followed, namely the concentration of most of the rest of the navy at Alvarado, Veracruz after the start of the war. The Mexicans managed to keep the American Navy at bay, but the Mexican Navy trapped itself between the land and the USN with no means to escape, eventually being whittled down to nothing.

No Santa Anna to fuck the navy over and several extra years for Mexico to acquire more ships, and it's very likely that the USN would meet its match at sea...or at the very least limp back to port a beaten mess.

 

[Bill Clinton]

I have a few requests. I am working on a election project that I will post soon, but I have no idea how to make anything. Plus I have a old, slow, and Crappy computer.

-Mitt Romney wins in 2012

-Bill Clinton wins the elections of 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012
( no 22nd ammedement ) so he keeps running and winning elections

- And this Timeline
1960: (D) John Kennedy/ Lyndon Johnson vs (R) Richard Nixon/Henry Lodge

1964: (D) John Kennedy/ Lyndon Johnson vs (R) Barry Goldwater/William Miller

1968: (D) Herbert Humphrey/ George McGovern vs (R) Richard Nixon/Spiro Agnew

1972: (D) Herbert Humphrey/ George McGovern vs (R) Nelson Rockefeller/George W. Romney

1976: (D) Robert Kennedy/ Jimmy Carter vs (R) Gerald Ford/Bob Dole

1980: (D) Robert Kennedy/ Jimmy Carter vs (R) Ronald Reagan/ George H.W Bush

1984: (R) George H.W Bush/ Jack Kemp vs (D) Walter Mondale/ Geraldine Ferraro

1988: (R) George H.W Bush/ Jack Kemp vs (D) Michael Dukakis/ Lloyd Bentsen

1992: (D) Bill Clinton/ Al Gore vs (R) Jack Kemp/ Dan Quayle

1996: (D) Bill Clinton/ Al Gore vs (R) Bob Dole/ Ross Perot

2000: (D) Al Gore/ John Kerry vs (R) George W. Bush/ Dick Cheney

2004: (D) AL Gore/ John Kerry vs (R) John McCain/ Joe Lieberman

2008: (D) Barack Obama/ Joe Biden vs (R) Mitt Romney/ Sarah Palin

2012: (D) Barack Obama/ Joe Biden vs (R) Rick Santorum / Paul Ryan

2016: (D) Joe Biden/ Kirsten Gillibrand vs (R) Christ Christie/ Marco Rubio

2020: (D) Joe Biden/ Kirsten Gillibrand vs (R) Ted Cruz/ Rob Portman