Medieval America Tk II: Discussion Thread

Alizarine

False Dmitri said:
This sounds about right. I like the coastal federation. What's their culture like? Buddhist? Tribal religion?

I'd think that the "indigenous" groups would, in terms of descent, have a strong "Mercan" background as well, but still be basically indigenous. Culturally, do they have any influence from Merca?

Do you know anything about the Yukon? Geographically it sort of forms a piece with Alaska.
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Which coastal federation?

The Great Tribe of the Aleuts have a syncreticism of indigenous beliefs and a bit of Shinto and Buddhism picked up from traders (I plan, if we ever get to the Old World, to have a large Japanese cultured state in Siberia, and they'll also being in contact with the Buddhism PNW). The Confederation of the Yupik have something similar, but there are also some Christian beliefs in there as well (although fewer Buddhist beliefs since they don't trade with the Pacific NW). The tribal nations to the north are mostly indigenous, although there are still a few traces of Christianity.

As for the Laskan Federation - its odd. They've kept their Christian faith, and put up with the Buddhist traders from the PNW because they need their goods. They have picked up a few extra saints and tales from natives, but more importantly they've also undergone what can only be described as parallel evolution with the Norse beliefs of our history.

The Devil is now seen as a figure of cold and ending who dwells at the top of the world (this also makes peoples like the Inuit and the northern tribes, who live off the ice, seem like demons) whereas God is a figure of warmth, a god of hearth and fire, with the Sun seen as God's Lantern (give them a few more centuries and they might start worshipping the Sun as God, and then they'll basically follow R'hllor from ASOIAF), which provides both warmth and the light to make plants grow (even though fishing provides a lot of their food, agriculture is seen as want differentiates them from the Northern savages)

They envisage the end of the world will involve years long winters, where they will be able to survive because of their dedication, holiness and knowledge of such - during this time, some will either die from being unprepared (the southerners) or turn to the demons to learn how to live on the ice. Eventually, though, God will defeat the Devil forever and the entire world will be made a warm paradise for them to resettle (this is quite possibly a really old cultural memory of global warming :p )

The indigenous groups do have a bit of a Mercan background but they're still predominantly indigenous. The Americans didn't fare well in the few large towns north of the Alaskan Range, and the result was those that did survive absically had to turn to the tribes (if the tribes, struggling to recover their old ways, would help them) to survive.

As far as the Yukon, I hadn't really thought about it, but it is a problem. The Mercans are safe behind the Alaska Range, and I think that thge geographical idea of 'Laska' will have expanded to include much of the Yukon, because the old boundaries don't mean much to the tribes there. The tribes in the Southeast of the Yukon might have contact with the northern PNW region by means of Lake WIlliston and the accompanying valley, but I don't know.
 
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Flashman

Flashman

I had an idea- a race of Gypsy/ Jews that travel from city to city, becoming prosperous off of trade, but always eventually leaving for greener pastures after a few years- the Trookers, descended from Truck Drivers.
 

Alizarine

ALso, to whoever is doing the PNW - make sure you include what is now the Alaska Panhandle to Oregon, Washington, British Columbia etc. Geographically speaking, that's a better place for it than in 'Laska'.
 

False Dmitri

Flashman said:
I had an idea- a race of Gypsy/ Jews that travel from city to city, becoming prosperous off of trade, but always eventually leaving for greener pastures after a few years- the Trookers, descended from Truck Drivers.
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jmberry did something like that in the last incarnation. It was pretty cool.
 

jmberry

False Dmitri said:
I am a little surprised at the slow pace; there had been a lot of interest previously. Was the reboot not a wise idea, I wonder?
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I think the reboot was necessary giving the old thread's chaotic and jumbled nature - this sort of slow down has happened in every collaborative I've seen, so it's not unexpected.
 

Alizarine

jmberry said:
I think the reboot was necessary giving the old thread's chaotic and jumbled nature - this sort of slow down has happened in every collaborative I've seen, so it's not unexpected.
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From what I've seen of the old thread, it was a good idea. The old thing was incomprehensible.

Still, maybe we should make a wiki for this, so we can have one place where everything is and there are links to related information?
 
history nerd

history nerd

Sonus Silentii said:
From what I've seen of the old thread, it was a good idea. The old thing was incomprehensible.

Still, maybe we should make a wiki for this, so we can have one place where everything is and there are links to related information?
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I think that is the best idea, had the old thread been organised as a wiki the reboot may never have been necessary.
 

jmberry

That said, I do have a contribution that's been knocking around for a couple months:

Alphabets of North America

Before the Regression, all of North America used the Latin Alphabet. As civilization dissolved, the various churches maintained the written word, as they did in the previous Dark Ages. Because of what those faiths were, however, three distinct alphabets have spread across the continent.

Latin
The most familiar to us would be the Latin script, maintained by the American Non-Denom Church and the Roman Catholic Church. While the various languages of the Feudal Core have diverged from each other significantly, most still write using the same letters they always have. It is, with little variation, the script of all English-descended languages of the Feudal Core, Mexican, Laurentais, and Ecclesiastical American.

Digohweli
For the first few centuries the handful of literate Cowboys largely used the Latin alphabet. However, clans in what was once Oklahoma had taken to using what they assumed was a native Oklahoman alphabet - Digohweli, the Cherokee script. As time went on and the New Israelite faith fully took form, the priests used Digohweli to keep the Word of God pure and uncorrupted by Easterling beliefs. Since the priests are often the only literate cowboys, this has made Digohweli the de facto alphabet of the Great Plains. Digohweli letters can even be found in the written form of the Iowan language, despite the Iowans using a Latin script after conversion.

Deseretee
The Deseretee script was formed in the 19th century under the direction of Brigham Young. Under the guidance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, it became the official alphabet of Deseret. As Salt Lake City became the center of trade in the West, the Deseretee script followed the traders. Despite not being Mormon, New Mexico, the Californias, and the Salishans and Columbians all use modified forms of the Deseretee Script. A curious outgrowth of this is that all of the Westron languages have dropped the mid-central vowel sound, as there is no way to write it in Deseretee.
 

Malta

Malta Shah said:
As for the Pacific Northwest I think that of them :
City Status:portland stands to be the richest and most important given its position as a trade crossroad on the Columbia/Williamette Rivers. Seattle, Vacouver, Victoria, Astoria, Port Angeles, Aberdeen, and Olympia will likely form their own city states. Pendleton, Bend, Yakmia, Walla Walla, and Spokane being the principle Columbia cities.

Trans-Pacific: Trade will actually be not that bad, as during the 1800s American schooners trading to Russia and China was popular even before heavy American-Canadian settlement. I can see a competitive trade route with California over Hawaii forming.

Ethnic Makeup: South of Vancouver will be very White Bred, but the Vancouver area has a ethnic make up of many Asians as nearly a quarter of the population is Asian Ethnicly in BC. Which may actually combine with Seattle's 13ish percent Asian population. So, it is quite possible the Asian character of the area could be prominent.

Alaska + Natives: The relationship will likely be combative with the Cascadia groups, the largely white population probably would shrink prior to the collapse as people move out, but a number would remain and merge with the Natives. Anchorage will probably be a competitive zone between the PNW and Russian Far East. A smart chief of the Alaskan remnants would control the city and play off the Russians, PNWers, and other Alaskans off one another.

ON ANOTHER NOTE:


What was discussed on railroads? Railroads will gain prominence again, except instead of steam they will be moved by people or animal power.
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Still available to write about the Maritime Republics and Columbia.
 
Flashman

Flashman

I wonder how much cultural memories would survive of the Great Wars. Every school child knows at least that America fought the Germans and the Japanese- it seems to me like the Great Wars will remain fresh in the mind of Medieval Americans.

Countless epics will tell of how brave people of the Murican empire fought the Germans in the east, and the Japanese in the west. The chief Pay-tone is famed for his masterful tactics, and his invention of the Iron Horse which he used to crush his enemies. Maybe even Winnie gets remembered, but this may not be so.

It will quite probably have worked its way into the non denom, and in some ways the New Israelite. And perhaps Rockwell Kingdom, with the Jewish "Never Forget" stance will keep very accurate records of the war.
 

False Dmitri

Flashman said:
I wonder how much cultural memories would survive of the Great Wars. Every school child knows at least that America fought the Germans and the Japanese- it seems to me like the Great Wars will remain fresh in the mind of Medieval Americans.

Countless epics will tell of how brave people of the Murican empire fought the Germans in the east, and the Japanese in the west. The chief Pay-tone is famed for his masterful tactics, and his invention of the Iron Horse which he used to crush his enemies. Maybe even Winnie gets remembered, but this may not be so.

It will quite probably have worked its way into the non denom, and in some ways the New Israelite. And perhaps Rockwell Kingdom, with the Jewish "Never Forget" stance will keep very accurate records of the war.
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Hooray for the thread revival!

The prevailing analogy is that Medieval America : Medieval Europe :: modern society : Roman Empire. So a great deal of documents no doubt survived that give fairly accurate history. And the Medieval America scribes have chosen certain canonical works to emphasize, choosing which books to copy and re-copy, which to abridge and summarize, and which to ignore and allow to fade into oblivion. Since our society has produced millions of times more information than a non-printing society could ever maintain, the scribes would have to be very selective indeed. Probably there is a Standard Text that is used to study the Great Wars - Churchill's The Second World War comes to mind[*], though the scribes might choose something more unexpected instead. But either way, I think that educated elites would actually have a pretty clear and realistic picture of the major past events. Things would not degrade into legend quite so fast.

Probably they would have more factual information about "ancient" history, than about events that occurred earlier in their own era, when records and documents were not so numerous.

I understand that cultural memories of the illiterate peasants are another matter. Their collective knowledge would still be affected by what the elites know from their books, but it's certainly true that legends have a way of getting out of hand, even in literate societies.


[*] This makes me think of another analogy: if the Medieval Americans look back to the USA as their Rome, then Britain almost certainly plays the role of Greece! (Except for the different language part.)
 
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False Dmitri

jmberry said:
Deseretee
The Deseretee script was formed in the 19th century under the direction of Brigham Young. Under the guidance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, it became the official alphabet of Deseret. As Salt Lake City became the center of trade in the West, the Deseretee script followed the traders. Despite not being Mormon, New Mexico, the Californias, and the Salishans and Columbians all use modified forms of the Deseretee Script.
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I really like this post a lot. Well done finding alternate alphabets that are still American. Do Cree/Inuit Syllabics also extend much further south than in OTL?

Regarding the Californias: California also has a religion that is very dependent on a specific canon of ancient scriptures, and all those scriptures would be written in American English, Latin Alphabet.

How about this: Latin (or "American") is the elite script of California - the writing of the priesthood and the imperial bureaucracy. And Deseretee is the "middle class" script - the writing that merchants use to keep their accounts, the writing that Geeks use to sketch out the outlines of their plays, et cetera. It is an alphabet that arrived from Utah on the trade caravans, so it makes sense that it would catch on among semi-nomads like merchants and Geeks. Diplomatic correspondence is also carried out in Deseretee ... it's actually rather like the roles of the Egyptian and Akkadian scripts in ancient Egypt. And maybe the Deseretee alphabet is slowly expanding even in official bureaucratic circles, too. Much to the chagrin of the religious leaders, who hate that the pure alphabet of the Scriptures could give way to the barbarian writing out of Utah.

jmberry said:
A curious outgrowth of this is that all of the Westron languages have dropped the mid-central vowel sound, as there is no way to write it in Deseretee.
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I don't think that language works like that. Spoken language can adapt itself to a written standard only with great difficulty, when there is a strong education program that emphasizes "correct" pronunciation. And even then, colloquial speech (when Teacher's not watching) would probably still drift away from the standard over time. It is much more common for spoken language to change, and written language has to adapt to keep up. This is especially true when literacy is uncommon - the majority of the people have no reason to change their speech to conform to the written language, since most of them have no idea how the written language works.

It's possible that educated Westron speakers adopt an affected accent, where the mid-central vowels are replaced by clear /a/ /e/ /i/ /o/ /u/ sounds, because that's what they are taught in scribal school. But even then, in private, all but the stuffiest and most pompous scribes would tend to use the local dialect, less influenced by the written alphabet.

This is a moot point for the Angelan and South Calian languages of California, because these have lost their mid-central vowels anyway through contact with Spanish. North Calian still has those vowels, but in "odd" places compared with today's American English.
 
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Jord839

I'm glad to see that some iteration of this kept going after my long absence from the board. Kudos on managing it better than I did as well, jmberry. Seems like it's going well.

As you've opened up the general world a bit, let me put in something I thought about compared to the old thread and Catholicism:

I think that we did underestimate the tyranny of distance and the effects that that will have on the european Papacy's grasp on power. It may retain power in Quebec due to easier contact, but the more I think about it the more I feel it would lose a lot of power the further south you go, which opens up some interesting possibilities for further conflicts.

Considering there are more Catholics in Latin America than Europe currently and their distance politically and physically from the modern center of Catholicism(Francis notwithstanding), I think there's a real possibility of there being at least one antipope residing in Latin America. So Catholics in the Western Hemisphere may be split between a Mexican Pope, the "Quebecker" Pope, and others that drifted closer into the Nondenominational Church.

Here's how I see this happening: difficulty of contact with Rome, losing many members to the Nondenoms, Scientoligists, New Agers, and closer to home Voudoo-ists(who probably include Santeria movements as well), and a clash of temporal interests may lead to one rising state in the south to declaring their own Pope in the New World. It's also possible that the Roman pope could name a "Patriarch of the New World" to act in his stead who simply grows into his own de facto power.

Just a suggestion, hope your guys' good work continues.

False Dmitri said:
I don't think that language works like that. Spoken language can adapt itself to a written standard only with great difficulty, when there is a strong education program that emphasizes "correct" pronunciation. And even then, colloquial speech (when Teacher's not watching) would probably still drift away from the standard over time. It is much more common for spoken language to change, and written language has to adapt to keep up. This is especially true when literacy is uncommon - the majority of the people have no reason to change their speech to conform to the written language, since most of them have no idea how the written language works.

It's possible that educated Westron speakers adopt an affected accent, where the mid-central vowels are replaced by clear /a/ /e/ /i/ /o/ /u/ sounds, because that's what they are taught in scribal school. But even then, in private, all but the stuffiest and most pompous scribes would tend to use the local dialect, less influenced by the written alphabet.

This is a moot point for the Angelan and South Calian languages of California, because these have lost their mid-central vowels anyway through contact with Spanish. North Calian still has those vowels, but in "odd" places compared with today's American English.
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I tend to agree with this post, having learned alot more about speech development myself since the first thread.

Languages tend to simplify when spoken, dropping unnecessary emphasis or consonants in most situations, with just enough in the other way to keep words differentiated. That said, influence from the Calian language may do a lot to keep the schwa from being nearly as omnipresent as it is in OTL modern germanic languages, when paired with perhaps a strong push against it from the church and state because it closely resembles the heathen speech of the Yeegars. I wouldn't expect it to disappear in your average lower-class person's speech though.

And on some other language notes, could we reasonably expect that a form of "y'all"(for the South/southern New Isrealites) and "Yinz"(from OTL Pittsburgh area) might be codified into an official grammatical second person plural in those areas' languages? Do we think the Angelan dialect might take on more synthetic language traits in its syntax due to Spanish influence by adding different forms of verbs to match subjects or loosening the necessity of proper word order from modern English?
 

jmberry

Flashman said:
I wonder how much cultural memories would survive of the Great Wars. Every school child knows at least that America fought the Germans and the Japanese- it seems to me like the Great Wars will remain fresh in the mind of Medieval Americans.

Countless epics will tell of how brave people of the Murican empire fought the Germans in the east, and the Japanese in the west. The chief Pay-tone is famed for his masterful tactics, and his invention of the Iron Horse which he used to crush his enemies. Maybe even Winnie gets remembered, but this may not be so.

It will quite probably have worked its way into the non denom, and in some ways the New Israelite. And perhaps Rockwell Kingdom, with the Jewish "Never Forget" stance will keep very accurate records of the war.
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The Non-Denom, at least, has the Library of Congress and thus access to numerous historic records, which they have a vested interest in maintaining as they grew out of the legal system. So the priests know at least the cliff notes version of the war. The nobles, meanwhile, patron poets that speak of how Hitler was killed at D-Day by Davy Crockett and Elvis.
 
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