WI after the success of Op CHROMITE and the push from Inchon, MacArthur and Truman ahd decided to halt the UN/US advance after taking Pyongyang, instead of pushing all the way to the Chinese border and incurring the wrath of the PRC with the hundreds of thousands of Red Chinese volunteers swarming down on the UN forces ?
Korean War-MacArthur stops after taking Pyongyang
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
I think to get this you would need some kind of 'you cannot deny the PRC is moving hundred of thousands of troops in NK' evidence to get this to happen. Not unlikely, but that's what you would need. Maybe a photo op of Mao crossing the Yalu or something. 
Larrikin
Banned
BugOut Doug and Intelligence
Doug was one of the worst utilizers of military intelligence in modern history. If it didn't agree with his preconceptions and would get in the way of his glory he totally ignored it. He would also cook it, lie about it, fake it, etc., etc.. He had the information that the PRC were moving their "volunteers" across the Yalu, and in fact, they were even kind enough to lay on a couple of warning attacks to make the fact clear. When Doug left his head up his arse, the full on offensive went in.
The only way the UN push would have stopped at Pyongyang would have been if Truman had sacked the primma donna as soon as he stepped out of line and went beyond his orders.
I think to get this you would need some kind of 'you cannot deny the PRC is moving hundred of thousands of troops in NK' evidence to get this to happen. Not unlikely, but that's what you would need. Maybe a photo op of Mao crossing the Yalu or something.
Doug was one of the worst utilizers of military intelligence in modern history. If it didn't agree with his preconceptions and would get in the way of his glory he totally ignored it. He would also cook it, lie about it, fake it, etc., etc.. He had the information that the PRC were moving their "volunteers" across the Yalu, and in fact, they were even kind enough to lay on a couple of warning attacks to make the fact clear. When Doug left his head up his arse, the full on offensive went in.
The only way the UN push would have stopped at Pyongyang would have been if Truman had sacked the primma donna as soon as he stepped out of line and went beyond his orders.
I had a scenario similar to this on the old board... basically, it was WI the allies stopped after taking 3/4 of NK, leaving them only the mountainous northern 1/4 of it... no UN troops on the PRC border.... the big question is: the PRC was willing to go to war to save all of NK, but would it go to war to save part of it? If not, the allies can annex the southern 3/4 of NK to SK... this deprives NK of most of it's cities and arable land.....
that's an interesting scenario too.. WI the ROKs continued ahead without US support, provoked the Chinese into attacking, and would no doubt get their butts kicked... and then the Chinese crash into the long prepared US defensive lines further south... this time, it'd be them hitting against our prepared troops instead of the complete surprise they managed to pull against MacArthur in OTL....
Actually, I'm pretty sure that MacArthur suspected the Chinese might get involved, he probably just didn't think they would actually have the guts to pull it off. So it's not a surprise in "What the hell, who's that attacking us?" it's more a "They're actually daring to do that?"
BTW, the Nationalists were pretty much beyond recovery by 1950. At most, there was resistance in the encircled areas way too far from any sort of aid. So unless the ROK wants to head into Manchuria to actively support the ROC, they're going into a powerbase for the Communists and backyard for the Soviets.
BTW, the Nationalists were pretty much beyond recovery by 1950. At most, there was resistance in the encircled areas way too far from any sort of aid. So unless the ROK wants to head into Manchuria to actively support the ROC, they're going into a powerbase for the Communists and backyard for the Soviets.
Larrikin
Banned
Complete surprise?
There was no complete surprise, there was total incompetence. The PRC not only informed BugOut in plain language what would happen, they even, as I said earlier, staged a preliminary assaults to let him know they were serious. MacArthur and his staff, as they had done multiple times in the lead up to WWII, during WWII, and in the lead up to Korea, completely and utterly ignored all intelligence that didn't act to increase BugOut's personal glory.
There was no complete surprise, there was total incompetence. The PRC not only informed BugOut in plain language what would happen, they even, as I said earlier, staged a preliminary assaults to let him know they were serious. MacArthur and his staff, as they had done multiple times in the lead up to WWII, during WWII, and in the lead up to Korea, completely and utterly ignored all intelligence that didn't act to increase BugOut's personal glory.
well, there was still surprise, as no one seemed to be expecting the attack. And in this scenario, there would be plenty of warning that the Chinese were coming, and the US troops would have ample time to build their defenses....
Larrikin
Banned
Surprise, surprise
8th Army HQ, under intructions from The Great Primma Donna, was telling the forward units that they had to go forward, and that there was no threat. This directly contradicted the evidence that the competent forward units (eg. the US Marines) were feeding back, that there were Chinese everywhere. Part of the problem was that the US Army infantry units were crap, they had no patrols out, weren't paying any attention to what was going on in front of them, and had no piquets in place.
The PRC offensive was well and truly telegraphed, the GPD wilfully ignored it. Probably because in his arrogance he felt that he could stop it, and then leverage it for an all out attack on China, including dropping the Big One on Beijing.
8th Army HQ, under intructions from The Great Primma Donna, was telling the forward units that they had to go forward, and that there was no threat. This directly contradicted the evidence that the competent forward units (eg. the US Marines) were feeding back, that there were Chinese everywhere. Part of the problem was that the US Army infantry units were crap, they had no patrols out, weren't paying any attention to what was going on in front of them, and had no piquets in place.
The PRC offensive was well and truly telegraphed, the GPD wilfully ignored it. Probably because in his arrogance he felt that he could stop it, and then leverage it for an all out attack on China, including dropping the Big One on Beijing.