IJN Carrier attack on Hawaii - January 1942. Wargame for thread in progress.

This all looks very interesting, and I look forward to reading more. However, I do have one point on which I would like clarification:

What exactly do you mean by the Japanese "didn't have" radar-directed interception? If you mean that they wouldn't have it onboard their ships in January 1942, you are of course true.... Therefore, although this Japanese fleet won't have radar of their own to use, they will be aware that the US fleet almost certainly has radar, and will act accordingly.

Right, at the time of this scenario the Japanese didn't have radar directed interception. AFAIK, not even in 1944 did they use it. The US player does have it and knows the rules.

Whether KB at the time fully absorbed the implications of US radar, I'm not so certain. I can't think of any case where tactics were altered (ie, low level approach) to achieve surprise.
 
None - if you identify a ship type, it is correct.

A search is a string of rolls on a six-sided die. If a '1' is rolled then that ends the search. Clouds and night have a negative DRM.

A TF might have, say, 4 carriers, 6 cruisers and 5 'blank' counters. A search might be -

3,2,1,4,5,4,3

The '3' spots three ships (or blanks) at random, the '2' spots two more, the '1' ends the search. Using Rand() in excel on the ships list, it comes out as a search report of 3 blanks and 2 CA in one 'shuffle' and 2 CV, 2 CA, 1 blank in another.

An interesting variant to try (not for this particular game but maybe a future run of this) would be to have the Referee then roll percentile based on the experience of the searching unit (say 60% success for an experienced scouting unit, 30% for an inexperienced and 80% for an elite.) and on a failure, they misidentify the unit found. So the Referee basically in the above case assume experienced scout so the Referee would roll % 2 times in one shuffle and 4 times in the other shuffle for the spotted ships, in either case they spotted the ships but the question is did they correctly id the types.
 
Nice to get a little more info on the rules and how they can play out. I will admit that I to read how the turns are going. I will try to be patient but sometimes it is nice to have lots of posts to read at one go.
 
Glenn239 said:
I can't think of any case where tactics were altered (ie, low level approach) to achieve surprise.
I'm unaware of it. As technologically incompetent as the senior officers were, I'd be surprised if they quite understood how radar worked, or how important it was.
An interesting variant to try (not for this particular game but maybe a future run of this) would be to have the Referee then roll percentile based on the experience of the searching unit (say 60% success for an experienced scouting unit, 30% for an inexperienced and 80% for an elite.) and on a failure, they misidentify the unit found. So the Referee basically in the above case assume experienced scout so the Referee would roll % 2 times in one shuffle and 4 times in the other shuffle for the spotted ships, in either case they spotted the ships but the question is did they correctly id the types.
I like the idea.:cool:

I suggested, for future use, an option for an outright lie.:cool:
 
What information does an attacking player get about the results of an airstrike? In terms of number of hits achieved on what kind of targets? Because that was often... extraordinarily wrong.
 
Game Update.

Searches for turn 5 (12PM to 4PM, Day 2) have produced significant results.

The Japanese player has spotted 2 US carriers, 4 heavy cruisers, 2 transports 250 miles NW of Oahu in clear weather.

The Japanese player has spotted 3 US battleships, one transport in Pearl Harbor in -1 cloud cover.

The Japanese TF sees single engine carrier type scouts overhead, 250 miles north north west of Oahu.

The US TF sees single engine carrier type scouts overhead his task force, 250 miles NW of Oahu.

The US player has spotted 2 IJN carriers 250 miles north north west of Oahu in '-1' cloud cover.

The distance between the US two carriers spotted NW of Oahu and the IJN 2 carriers spotted NNW of Oahu is 200 miles.

Both players are now planning their air strikes and CAP missions. Well, all you observers, what would you do. Blinker your admiral flagships now. Both sides have carriers in range of the enemy, but the forces spotted might not account for the enemy's full strength. Him with everything? Hold some back? Go after Oahu and the US carriers? What to do, what to do....
 
An interesting variant to try (not for this particular game but maybe a future run of this) would be to have the Referee then roll percentile based on the experience of the searching unit (say 60% success for an experienced scouting unit, 30% for an inexperienced and 80% for an elite.) and on a failure, they misidentify the unit found. So the Referee basically in the above case assume experienced scout so the Referee would roll % 2 times in one shuffle and 4 times in the other shuffle for the spotted ships, in either case they spotted the ships but the question is did they correctly id the types.

Yep, that would be a good idea. The game was originally designed for two-player FTF with everything streamlined to be as simple as possible while still capturing fundamental principles.. But with a GM, more is possible, like incorrect sighting reports.
 
What information does an attacking player get about the results of an airstrike? In terms of number of hits achieved on what kind of targets? Because that was often... extraordinarily wrong.

The information in this game will be exact for both players. In the future, the fog of war for damage might also be an appropriate thing to include.
 
My mental math says the American carriers might be out-numbered two to one. Given that both sides know of each other - and of each other's scouts - I suspect the Americans might want to concentrate on not being sunk. Maximum CAP, sprint to a new position, etc.
 
Japanese: Hit the US carriers with all strike assets you got, keep CAP to defend against attacks from Oahu.

US: Hit the Japanese carriers with all you got.
 
Since in game terms losses will be more significant than IRL, I'd tend to agree saving U.S. ships makes more sense.

I will, however, offer no advice on doing it.:p

Nor, with all respect to readers here, tell you what I intend until after combat is resolved.;)
 
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Thoughts, in no particular order:

Both players need to sink the carriers at all costs. Duh.

If the Japanese player has been readying for an strike on Pearl Harbor, he's basically in the same position as Nagumo at Midway, right? Planes loaded with the wrong weapons and enemy task forces in the area. However, I doubt the Japanese player would have done that, because his scouts failed to give him an idea of forces in Pearl Harbor, and betrayed his presence.

The Japanese scout plane recognized three battleships in Pearl Harbor. This might get back to my "false recognition" question, but do the wrecks of the USS West Virginia, USS California and USS Arizona *look* like battleships? (I can't imagine anyone mistaking the USS Oklahoma for an operational warship) The USS Nevada was apparently refloated the 12th of February, at which point I assume she would be mostly indistinguishable from an operational ship. If they are operational battleships, I have to wonder why they didn't put to sea. If they aren't, the Japanese admiral still has to worry about tripping over a battleline of half-a-dozen dreadnoughts.

However, if the US battleships are in fact operational, the Japanese player has a pretty good idea of the location of pretty much all the USN forces which is a tremendous advantage.

What's with the USN transports? They can't score any victory points by making landings on Japanese islands, can they? They do make for nice juicy targets for the Kido Butai though.


The two Japanese carriers could be a decoy force. There might be 4 others getting ready to bomb the heck out of Midway and support a landing. Heck, they could be light carriers, opposed to the fleet carriers. Or the light carriers could be the ones supporting a Midway landing. Multiple fleet carriers is a bit large for a diversion though. Japanese carrier doctrine, as well as basic rules of warfare would advise concentration of force. Also, the American player doesn't know the location or status of the Japanese battleline.

I think the Japanese player is in a respectable position to defeat the USN in detail. Unless of course he's "Nagumoed" himself. :p

Edit: Which ways are the winds blowing? It would be a tremendous advantage for the Japanese player if the Americans had to sail towards the Japanese forces and the presumably accompanying Kongos to launch aircraft.

Edit #2: what is the specific date of this battle?
 
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If the Japanese player has been readying for an strike on Pearl Harbor, he's basically in the same position as Nagumo at Midway, right? Planes loaded with the wrong weapons and enemy task forces in the area. However, I doubt the Japanese player would have done that, because his scouts failed to give him an idea of forces in Pearl Harbor, and betrayed his presence.

Default armament is torpedo unless specifically specified. With the IJN player, since he was closing on Oahu I had him he clarify what armament was on his Kates.

The Japanese scout plane recognized three battleships in Pearl Harbor. This might get back to my "false recognition" question, but do the wrecks of the USS West Virginia, USS California and USS Arizona *look* like battleships?

Totally overlooked that. No, the 3 BB's spotted are all operational units.

What's with the USN transports? They can't score any victory points by making landings on Japanese islands, can they? They do make for nice juicy targets for the Kido Butai though.

'Transports' is a generic description for anything that looks 'transporty'.

I think the Japanese player is in a respectable position to defeat the USN in detail. Unless of course he's "Nagumoed" himself.

If the IJN carriers were armed with bombs, these still can attack carriers. (It's a little known fact, but during Santa Cruz IJN forces made 800kg level bomb attacks on the crippled USS Hornet). But the way the combat system works, torpedoes are better.

Edit: Which ways are the winds blowing? It would be a tremendous advantage for the Japanese player if the Americans had to sail towards the Japanese forces and the presumably accompanying Kongos to launch aircraft.

Wind is blowing towards the west. If carriers are doing heavy recovery, then they can only move 1 square unless they are moving directly into the wind.

what is the specific date of this battle?

Early February-ish 1942.
 
Living in Exile said:
If the Japanese player has been readying for an strike on Pearl Harbor, he's basically in the same position as Nagumo at Midway, right? Planes loaded with the wrong weapons and enemy task forces in the area. However, I doubt the Japanese player would have done that, because his scouts failed to give him an idea of forces in Pearl Harbor, and betrayed his presence.
I had that in mind, & took the view Nagumo didn't OTL, namely, Hawaii isn't going anywhere.:p

I've already run into the issue of CAP, thinking one CV's strength was 18 a/c on CAP, when it's not...:eek:

I've also gotten bitten by IJN doctrine not allowing alpha strikes.:eek:
Living in Exile said:
recognized three battleships in Pearl Harbor
For my purposes, wrecks or no, it makes no difference. They aren't CVs.;)
Living in Exile said:
What's with the USN transports?
I was presuming potential oilers, misidentified. (I'm presuming no ID errors, or those "CVs" could be oilers.:eek:)
Living in Exile said:
I think the Japanese player is in a respectable position to defeat the USN in detail. Unless of course he's "Nagumoed" himself. :p
TY.:) I'm hoping I don't end up in a position of having strike returning as the USN strike arrives. The timing of the sighting, roughly mutual, suggests it's an issue of who has the "longer reach" & thus who gets in the first shot.

That was the issue at Midway, too: Nagumo really had to land his punch before Fletcher launched.
Living in Exile said:
Edit: Which ways are the winds blowing? It would be a tremendous advantage for the Japanese player if the Americans had to sail towards the Japanese forces and the presumably accompanying Kongos to launch aircraft.
My perception of the rules is, it doesn't matter; there's not enough "grain" in the game system. (Maybe for an updated version?)
Living in Exile said:
It seems like destroyers are not included in search. That's probably reasonable and realistic, but we can assume they're present, right?
Present, & an issue for fuelling. So far, they've played no role; for surface action, I expect they will.
 
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I suspect it's too late for you to get a clean first strike in. I expect you'll get a couple carriers sunk or damaged. (How does this game handle cripples?) The good news is N squared is on your side.

Is there any possibility of differentiating CV classes? Two Yorktowns means a lot more than two Lexingtons.


Edit: I wasn't aware that the Yorktown was launching strikes on Japanese strongholds by February, I thought there was a good possibility it hasn't made it to the front lines of the Pacific yet. USS Hornet may or may not be plausibly operating in the Pacific by this point, and who knows what USS Wasp is up to. So which class of CVs spotted is still relevant.
 
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Hello all,
CINCPAC reporting in here. I'm sure Kevin is wondering the same thing I am, where are the rest of the enemy's ships? Neither of us have full information on our opponent's strength. Plotting searches and movements are full of tension. I too appreciate Nagumo's problems more.

I agree with my august opponent, there aren't enough planes to do everything. On the plus side (or the minus), your lightly escorted strike will likely face a small CAP, or vice versa.*

Launching all your planes at the spotted enemy means not having a strike ready if other dangers are spotted. Leaving some planes behind for a situation that may not develop means a weaker strike against the known danger. Unlike Kevin though, I have a fortress to rely on.

It won't be a security breach to say I've launched air strikes. :) Here is to hoping I have more than 1 carrier after this turn. :eek:

Michael aka dilvish
 
Well as the American player I would be very tempted to launch every thing I had from Oahu against the known Japanese ships. Plus an additional lighter strike from the carriers, keeping a heavy CAP back at the carriers.

The as the Japanese player I would launch a heavy strike against the US carriers, heavily escorted. Counting on the fact that my fighters are better than the US fighters (I don't know if the game takes this into account or not) to protect my fleet.
 
Well as the American player I would be very tempted to launch every thing I had from Oahu against the known Japanese ships. Plus an additional lighter strike from the carriers, keeping a heavy CAP back at the carriers.

The as the Japanese player I would launch a heavy strike against the US carriers, heavily escorted. Counting on the fact that my fighters are better than the US fighters (I don't know if the game takes this into account or not) to protect my fleet.

I think Japanese doctrine offers an advantage here. The carriers are concentrated so they can combine their CAP. (And AA, but idk if that's a thing in this game).

American doctrine I believe to operated as more independent scattered task forces.
 
Dilvish said:
Hello all,
CINCPAC reporting in here. I'm sure Kevin is wondering the same thing I am, where are the rest of the enemy's ships? Neither of us have full information on our opponent's strength. Plotting searches and movements are full of tension. I too appreciate Nagumo's problems more.

I agree with my august opponent, there aren't enough planes to do everything. On the plus side (or the minus), your lightly escorted strike will likely face a small CAP, or vice versa.*

Launching all your planes at the spotted enemy means not having a strike ready if other dangers are spotted. Leaving some planes behind for a situation that may not develop means a weaker strike against the known danger. Unlike Kevin though, I have a fortress to rely on.

It won't be a security breach to say I've launched air strikes. :) Here is to hoping I have more than 1 carrier after this turn. :eek:

Michael aka dilvish
I think we're both finding out it's much harder than it looks.:eek::)

There will never be enough a/c aboard to give perfect protection, so you end up deciding if you want to hit what you know or risk letting it get away, or, worse, risk having him hit first. Neither do I think, now both sides are detected, admitting I've also got a strike on the way will surprise anyone.:p

My impression is, my (IJN) forces have the advantage, there, thanks to longer range. We will see.

Dilvish is entirely right, he's got Hawaii to fall back on, which only doubles what I said before: I've got to hit first or risk losing everything, since, like Nagumo OTL at Midway, the U.S. can recover to a base, & I can't.

The CVs are broken out by a/c numbers & speed.
 
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