Protect and Survive: A Timeline

kspence92

Does anyone have a list of Soviet targets in Scotland ?

Id imagine Rosyth would be taken out, along with the Forth Bridges. Leuchers and Lossimouth would be gone, as would Edinburgh and Glasgow. Probably Aberdeen as well due to the oil industry. Not sure if Dundee, Perth or Inverness were targets or not ?
 

Bernard Woolley

From memory the military targets were:
Rosyth (including both the dockyard and MHQ Pitreavie)
Faslane
Coulport
Holy Loch
Thurso

RAFs Leuchars and Lossiemouth are canon as having survived.

City wise Edinburgh, Dundee and Glasgow were all hit. Aberdeen was never mentioned, IIRC, but Perth became the main administrative centre for Scotland post-war. Inverness survived and became the main settlement in the northern half of Scotland.
 

Unknown

Actually, Aberdeen was mentioned, JN1. The bomb missed it, IIRC, and it survived (probably becoming the largest city in Scotland, IMO).
 

Bernard Woolley

It was written as part of an exercise scenario, so whether it was the actual speech, or not, I'm not sure we can say for certain. Depending on circumstances and the time of year what HM said might well have been different. The reference to Prince Andrew might have been altered, for example.

More interesting, IMVHO, are the nuclear briefing documents prepared in case Labour, or the Alliance won in '83 and there was a new PM.
 

kspence92

If this had happened for real, what kind of yield would the weapons that target military bases have ? For the Soviets to have targeted both Pitrevie and Roysth Dockyard with separate weapons they must have had a fairly small yield since both places are a five, maybe ten minute drive from one another. Wouldnt one slightly larger weapon take out both ?
 

Fenrisúlfr

kspence92 said:
If this had happened for real, what kind of yield would the weapons that target military bases have ? For the Soviets to have targeted both Pitrevie and Roysth Dockyard with separate weapons they must have had a fairly small yield since both places are a five, maybe ten minute drive from one another. Wouldnt one slightly larger weapon take out both ?
Click to expand...

I've always just assumed 300 kt per un-hardened target but I can't remember where I got that idea.
 
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Bernard Woolley

kspence92 said:
If this had happened for real, what kind of yield would the weapons that target military bases have ? For the Soviets to have targeted both Pitrevie and Roysth Dockyard with separate weapons they must have had a fairly small yield since both places are a five, maybe ten minute drive from one another. Wouldnt one slightly larger weapon take out both ?
Click to expand...

Yes, but there is no guarantee of that. Once a country has more then a minimum number of nuclear weapons its planning staff will look for additional targets, even if they might be covered by being close to another target. A good example was the fact that the Americans targeted the man who would have been in charge of Soviet transportation and his deputy, despite the fact that they worked in the same building!

From A Soviet target planner's perspective there is no guarantee that the weapon targeted on the dockyard will destroy the bunker at Pitreavie, so if they have a weapon available why not hit them both? Moreover a single large weapon might fail and leave a target uncovered, while it is more likely that one of the two smaller bombs will function.
 

Kidblast

I think people forget how militarized the white population was during the 1980s. Think Swiss levels of militarization.

South Africa had compulsory military service for all white men in the 1980s starting at age 16!! The End Conscription Campaign was a large protest movement against compulsory conscription. If the Apartheid government thought that war was imminent, there would be a massive arming of the white population, similar to Switzerland in scope. I imagine every white male over 14 would have an assault rifle, and just about every woman as well.

My father was a farmer in South Africa, and he used to carry a pistol and a shotgun at almost all time while he was working on the farm. This was just normal practice. My mother had a weapons permit as well, and would carry a pistol at times.

If the South African government thinks that there might be a racial uprising, every white citizen would get firearms and ammunition. I imagine the SADF would have no compunction bombing the townships with helicopter gunships and fighter jets. Remember, at this time, almost the entire Army is white.

Whites in South Africa have the materiel and training advantage, and unlike most guerrilla wars, the two sides are very easy to tell apart. I don't think the black population would fare very well in this scenario.

Also, I find it bizarre that the South Africa government would bomb Cape Town. Unlike other African colonies, the white population in South Africa dates back to the 1600s. The Afrikaners had no home to go back to. I think the prospect of Afrikaners blowing up Cape Town to be as plausible as Ronald Reagan nuking DC.

Weaver said:
Hmmm. I lived in Botswana between 1972 and 1977 and my job there involved quite a lot of contact with the SAP and SADF types.

As I understood the situation at time the focus of the SADF was entirely external, being concerned with the Caprivi Strip, SW Africa, Mozambique and the then Rhodesia. Obviously I know nothing of the actual targeting of RSA nukes but the understanding at the time was they were an insurance if SA was ever completely deserted by the West and suffered invasion from Angola by the Cubans, then present in considerable force.

They were completely unsuitable weapons for warfare within SA itself as most Black townships were geographically right next to the White areas.

Actual control of the ANC and Black insurgency within the country was the province of BOSS, the Burea of State Security, which was extemely efficient at its job, working mostly through a web of informers.

Aside from the 1976 riots in Soweto I can recall very little unrest in SA at that time, and my family and I travelled widely and regularly there for holidays, medical visits and even weekend shopping. There was even a lot of friendly interaction with SA Blacks and Indians, with no sense of menace.

Maybe it all went downhill after we left.

Incidentally I am no apologist for the old Apartheid regime, but just telling it how it seemed at the time.
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tom

tom

BTW, what was the population drop from this war?
The Cuban Missile War timeline went from 3 billion to 2.4 billion, IIRC.
World Almanac and Book of Facts 2013, pg 740:
US in 1960 had 20,434 nukes, USSR had 1,605 and UK had 30.
In 1980 US had 24,304, USSR had 30,062, UK had 350, France had 250, China had 280 and Israel had 31.
Also, in 1984 more easily accessible natural resources had been depleted, if not exhausted.
In addition, "old fashioned" stuff (experience, machinery, etc.) was less available than it had been in 1962.
So I could easily see over half the human race dying.
Am I right?
 

John Farson

Banned
tom said:
BTW, what was the population drop from this war?
The Cuban Missile War timeline went from 3 billion to 2.4 billion, IIRC.
World Almanac and Book of Facts 2013, pg 740:
US in 1960 had 20,434 nukes, USSR had 1,605 and UK had 30.
In 1980 US had 24,304, USSR had 30,062, UK had 350, France had 250, China had 280 and Israel had 31.
Also, in 1984 more easily accessible natural resources had been depleted, if not exhausted.
In addition, "old fashioned" stuff (experience, machinery, etc.) was less available than it had been in 1962.
So I could easily see over half the human race dying.
Am I right?
Click to expand...

Pretty much. Also include the collapse of the world economy and international trade, meaning a lot of countries dependent on food imports from the US and Canada (among other major agricultural producers) will be suddenly cut off from them, and you'll see famine in Africa and Asia at an unprecedented scale. And in 1984 the famine in Ethiopia was already in full swing. Only now you'll have many more and bigger Ethiopias going on all over the world.
 

henno

JN1 said:
I wonder how much longer the UK will have fuel to spare for using FV432s, or Humber Pigs to supervise laborers in the fields. I have an image of a modern soldier, SLR slung over his shoulder, on horseback.

Closest I can come to that is this pic of an RM in Pickle Meadow, California during a training exercise.

45139305.jpg
Click to expand...
just to add http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...-of-mounted-(horse)-units-recent-or-old/page2
 

Archangel

John Farson said:
Pretty much. Also include the collapse of the world economy and international trade, meaning a lot of countries dependent on food imports from the US and Canada (among other major agricultural producers) will be suddenly cut off from them, and you'll see famine in Africa and Asia at an unprecedented scale. And in 1984 the famine in Ethiopia was already in full swing. Only now you'll have many more and bigger Ethiopias going on all over the world.
Click to expand...
The most unstable countries in the third world will require decades to recover to pre-war levels of development.
 

Falkenburg

Monthly Donor
Given recent events, my mind turned more to something like This.

A different Character taking each section. Sweeping visuals over a devastated landscape. :cool:/:(

Falkenburg
 

Hörnla

tom said:
BTW, what was the population drop from this war?
Click to expand...

Just for fun, when I was working on the German nuke map, I also just made up numbers concerning the drop in population in the most popolous (pre-war) countries on Earth. I thoroughly guesstimated without very deep anylsis, just having in mind the general P&S-verse and toying with numbers.

Here a few of my estimates (note that I am optimistically inclined):

-Global population pre-war 4.85 billion
-immediately post-war 2.21 billion
-1990 estimates 1.66 billion (which rougly equals the global population in 1900)

For single nations (1st number: OTL population 1985, 2nd number estimate for 1990)

Prewar: Top12 countries in population
-PR China: 1058million => 286million
-India: 759million => 228million
-Soviet Union: 278million => 29 million
-USA: 238million => 56.5 million
-Indonesia: 166million => 119 million
-Brazil 137million => 104 million
-Japan 120.8million => 14.5million
-Bangladesh 102million => 64million
-Pakistan 102million => 49.8 million
-Nigeria 84.9million => 56 million
-Germany (FRG/GDR combined) 77.7million => 3.11million
-Mexico 76.7million => 10.8million

A few further examples:
Italy 56.7million => 11.3 million
UK 56.5million => 15.3 million
France 56.5 million => 19.2 million
Turkey 51million => 20.4 million
 

Bernard Woolley

Recently found out that 10 bombs on London was probably twice what was probably targeted on the city in @. Seems 5 would have been a more likely number.
EDIT: One attack plan used 4 350KT warheads and two 1MT warheads.
 
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Lord Hee Hee

Wow, wow and wow again. What a stunning story. It's taken me 5 days to devour this TL. Forgive me as a newbie, are there links somewhere for all the spin offs please?
 
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