Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

What an intriguing thought, especially for the Dutch to look at underwater living!:D

Well there are also things like kelp farming, fish farms and access to minerals underwater. But IOTL underwater habitats have not become popular because of the cost’s associated whit them. I was actually thinking on Isaac Asimov’s position about overpopulation in the 60is. He has said that he image that space exploration would come out of the need to escape the overpopulated earth. In his books earth is always pictured as overpopulated cramped places people want to escape and he transform the city planet Trantor to a pastoral planet in the Foundation series. IOTL there were also futurists in the 20is and 30is that image that overcrowded cites could house farming towers. This and many other ideas were presented before the green revolution and are surfacing now again.


Note that these too would be seen to be under Malthusian constraints (rightly or wrongly), and would not be considered infinite (renewable, yes, but not infinite).

Only fair, I think it was the word SUSTAINABLE I were looking for actually. Sustainable renewable resources management would be right up the Malthusian alley.

Maybe, maybe not. Malthusians are a bit more 'down to earth' on such matters so far...

Fair enough but it won’t stop Utopian thoughts to spring up ITTL. It’s only natural that people think about what a perfect society is. Koonsgaridans seemed like a first try to point out what a perfect society looks like and how it’s achieved. I feel like the Malthusian’s is another attempt ITTL.

Now that would be an ironic turn of events, wouldn't it....

Ironic perhaps but I don’t see the Malthusian’s advocating active starvation of millions of people if they in the same time wants them to enact social reforms.

I enjoy your timline a lot and I have to thank you for all this fantastic work.
 

Glen

Moderator
Well there are also things like kelp farming, fish farms and access to minerals underwater. But IOTL underwater habitats have not become popular because of the cost’s associated whit them.

Yep, the economics aren't there yet.

I was actually thinking on Isaac Asimov’s position about overpopulation in the 60is. He has said that he image that space exploration would come out of the need to escape the overpopulated earth. In his books earth is always pictured as overpopulated cramped places people want to escape and he transform the city planet Trantor to a pastoral planet in the Foundation series. IOTL there were also futurists in the 20is and 30is that image that overcrowded cites could house farming towers. This and many other ideas were presented before the green revolution and are surfacing now again.

True, true.

Only fair, I think it was the word SUSTAINABLE I were looking for actually. Sustainable renewable resources management would be right up the Malthusian alley.

Yes, sustainable is right in their wheelhouse, though they right now are freaking that the population is growing too rapidly to remain short term sustainable and are trying to avoid a Malthusian collapse which they fear will take society back to the Middle Ages (if not the Stone Ages).

Fair enough but it won’t stop Utopian thoughts to spring up ITTL. It’s only natural that people think about what a perfect society is.

Absolutely.

Koonsgaridans seemed like a first try to point out what a perfect society looks like and how it’s achieved.

Well, in all fairness it was the Enlightenment thinkers and Classical Liberalism that were the first to try this world-wide ITTL, though this happened OTL as well. Korsgaardianism is the first utopian movement born ITTL solely, though it certainly is kissing cousins to some IOTL.

I feel like the Malthusian’s is another attempt ITTL.

It is, though actually it is more of an anti-dystopian movement rather than an utopian movement (trying to avoid a dystopia rather than achieve an utopia). However, you are correct by and large. Granted, this is a DSA version of an OTL movement, here writ large.

Ironic perhaps but I don’t see the Malthusian’s advocating active starvation of millions of people if they in the same time wants them to enact social reforms.

They are actually trying to avoid active starvation - in fact, you could argue that is their core issue.

I enjoy your timline a lot and I have to thank you for all this fantastic work.

Thank you, your patronage is quite appreciated.
 

Glen

Moderator
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The Second Elizabethan Era ended on March 21, 1926 with the death of British Empress Elizabeth II. Her Britannic Majesty was one of the longest lived, longest reigning sovereigns in history. Very, very few lived who could remember a time when she was not the ruler of the largest Empire in the World. The poets say that the sun dimmed on the British Empire on that day. The leaders of the world turned out in the Imperial Capital of London to bid farewell to the legend, as did the multitudes of her subjects both British born and later a pigrimage of visitors from the far-flung corners of Empire to pay homage at her grave. Some historians called her the greatest woman who had ever lived.
 

Glen

Moderator
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The end of the Second Elizabethan Era in 1926 saw ushered in a new dynasty to the British realm, the House of Lyon-Bowes, with the coronation of Empress Elizabeth's oldest son by her Consort Thomas Lyon-Bowes as the King-Emperor Alexander I, Emperor of the British Empire, at the age of 60 years old.
 
Pretty big relative to OTL modern Afghanistan. Has some more of OTL Iran and Pakistan - the best part of course is that it has a coast!

How stable and developed the country is? It might have bit problems with multiple ethnic groups and tribes.
 

Glen

Moderator
How stable and developed the country is? It might have bit problems with multiple ethnic groups and tribes.

Fairly stable monarchy, with a rough sort of representative government based on representation of the tribal elders. Still a fair amount of tribal fighting but at more a simmering feud level, doesn't threaten overall government. Women's rights are lagging a bit behind the Western World. As staunch allies of the British Empire against the Russian Bear, they receive some generous assistance from the British, which along with Afghan Rugs, are their main source of international income. The Durrani Empire as of the 1920s is not exactly advanced, but is still doing better than OTL Afghanistan for the same time period.
 
Fairly stable monarchy, with a rough sort of representative government based on representation of the tribal elders. Still a fair amount of tribal fighting but at more a simmering feud level, doesn't threaten overall government. Women's rights are lagging a bit behind the Western World. As staunch allies of the British Empire against the Russian Bear, they receive some generous assistance from the British, which along with Afghan Rugs, are their main source of international income. The Durrani Empire as of the 1920s is not exactly advanced, but is still doing better than OTL Afghanistan for the same time period.

Women's rights lagging behind the western world is expected, the question is relative to women's rights in OTL Afghanistan...

The question is whether they have the more heavily populated parts of OTL Pakistan which would tilt the population centers away from the capital and the OTL Afghan ethnic groups or more just the current border areas (the ones that gave Al Qaeda support)
 

Glen

Moderator
Women's rights lagging behind the western world is expected, the question is relative to women's rights in OTL Afghanistan...

Better, especially among those educated abroad.

The question is whether they have the more heavily populated parts of OTL Pakistan which would tilt the population centers away from the capital and the OTL Afghan ethnic groups or more just the current border areas (the ones that gave Al Qaeda support)

More the current border areas. Think the old border with India before the Anglo-Afghan wars.
 
Some historians called her the greatest women who ever lived.

Considering her influence on the cultures around her were a major factor in Women's Suffrage being passed in many places more than half a century earlier than OTL, which in turn has improved women's rights in other areas, this statement would not be far off at all from a feminist perspective at least. Even not having OTL to compare with, her impact was noticeable.
 

Glen

Moderator
Considering her influence on the cultures around her were a major factor in Women's Suffrage being passed in many places more than half a century earlier than OTL, which in turn has improved women's rights in other areas, this statement would not be far off at all from a feminist perspective at least. Even not having OTL to compare with, her impact was noticeable.

Quite right, quite right.
 

Glen

Moderator
To further clarify, the areas on this map listed as Sindh, Punjab, and Kashmir are all part of the Dominion of Southern America (note that TTL's Durrani Empire stretches further north of the core Durrani Empire area listed, and of course Baluchistan listed on this map is part of Durrani as well). This is not from the DSA, but rather an OTL map to help show roughly the Durrani/Indian division.

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Glen

Moderator
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One of the earliest attempts to humanize execution in the West was popularized in Western Europe first during the French Revolution when the Guillotin became the preferred form of virtually 'painless' execution. The Guillotin survived the rise of the Napoleonic Empire and the restored French Monarchy to stay the main form of execution for France throughout the 19th century, and in fact was adopted by several neighboring nations including Belgique and Germany.

However, in the 20th century the rise of euthanasia as promulgated by the Malthusian Clubs by an injected cocktail of morphine and potassium chloride. also spread to capital punishment, starting in the Netherlands in the early 1920s, but quickly spread throughout the developed world as a quick, clean, and humane means of death. Even Russia would adopt the method as an alternative by 1930. Injection would become the mainstay of execution for the rest of the 20th century.
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Would the Malthusians evolve to advocate not just the control and reduction of the human population, but also the refining of it? They seem ripe for eugenicists to flock to them. I mean, the "logical" step from thinking that the human population is too large is getting rid of the "undesirable" portions, such as the mentally or physically deficient and socially backwards.
 
As an aside this TL never develops the electric chair.

Right, this thread is now in ASB territory.

The electric chair has a will to exist and the idea of a murderous chair is universal in human societies and I'd thank you to acknowledge that Glen!

;):p
 
Would the Malthusians evolve to advocate not just the control and reduction of the human population, but also the refining of it? They seem ripe for eugenicists to flock to them. I mean, the "logical" step from thinking that the human population is too large is getting rid of the "undesirable" portions, such as the mentally or physically deficient and socially backwards.

I hope its okay to raise some points against the logic in the "next logical step".

Social Darwinism (from IOTL) were not all nazis and eugenics. Peter Kropotkin points out in the book "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution" (1902) that Darwin didn't define the fitest as the the strongest. Its far from all the strongest and the best that survives. Many anymals survives and evolve as spices through cooperation. Humans too. Or in his words "struggle is replaced by co-operation."

Its arguable that we don't need to kill the "unfit" and its arguable more "profitable" to be humane and rehabilitate. The mentally ill, physically deficient and socially backwards have all used precious resources by growing up its a waste to not rehabilitate them into productive participating members of society

Or so the argument were before the first great war IOTL. This is setting aside the logical fallacy of Social Darwinism that "natural order" is always somehting good.

I hope this gives some good insight for ITTL development of this. Eugenics don't have to be anything stranger than IOTL EUTHENICS in a liberal society.
 
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