Glen
Moderator
It is a shared comment on both sides, so yes, a Southron or an American will say it equally often.
It is a shared comment on both sides, so yes, a Southron or an American will say it equally often.
Glen
Moderator
The year 1920 saw the first party take power predominantly on a Malthusian platform, in the Kingdom of the Netherlands. A small nation that had a high population density and who was fighting a constant battle to claiming land from the sea. While still requiring a coalition to govern, the Malthusian Party of the Netherlands had come out of nowhere to capitalize on growing concerrns about lack of resources for the growing population, especially in a country hemmed in by Empires. While ramping up land reclamation from the sea and severely restricting immigration into the nation, the party also forced through government support for contraception, abortion upon demand, euthanasia for the terminally ill, and even placed homophilic acts and relationships on par with heterophilic ones. In fact, one of the party leaders, Aldert Van Der Bogard was a social scientist and author of a controversial paper a few years before riding on the American controversy over the Ladd revelations that the nature of man is biphilic, and that while heterophilia was the norm most of the time, in periods of overcrowding and resource scarcity homophilic activity rose to higher levels as a check on overpopulation, and thus should be encouraged in an ever more crowded world. However, the most controversial move they made was the Eén Kind program, where those who after 1922 had more children (or more than one child if they had none or one prior to 1922) would have to pay heavy taxes on the extra children, as a means to discourage overpopulation. They were able to beat back a recall on this policy, though some of their most virulent detractors claimed that there was chicanery with the vote.
Wow, and the Malthusians continue to expand in popularity...how well do you think Malthusianism meshes with Korsgaardism, BTW? I would think they'd be pretty exclusive in many ways, but then again one could argue that a "Korsgaard-lite" government would have more sway over public affairs, which could lead to instances of Malthusian philosophy imposed by force. Scary thought, huh?
Keep up the good work!
Keep up the good work!
Glen
Moderator
Korsgaardism was focused on a conservative agenda and the good of the state, and most interpretations saw expansion and growth of the traditional state as a good. Basically the old Korsgaardianists would see Malthusians as dangerously radical and focused too much on protecting the world rather than the folk. But then again, we've seen other political movements that hate each other yet share some methods in common....
Just checking on the Een Kind rule for post 1922 families... the first child is free but the second and such is taxed? This could cause an interesting dynamic with the upper-middle driving (slow) population replacement and growth instead of the working class.
Honestly, I don't want to sound too controversial (for OTL) but incentivizing single-child planned parenthood for the poor always made sense to me, to concentrate scarce resources on one child. But I'm not sure how I feel about penalization. You've really created a Different World here!
Honestly, I don't want to sound too controversial (for OTL) but incentivizing single-child planned parenthood for the poor always made sense to me, to concentrate scarce resources on one child. But I'm not sure how I feel about penalization. You've really created a Different World here!
Glen
Moderator
Possible, possible...
Perhaps, perhaps....
Well, how do you feel about it in China?
That is part of the goal, eh?
China's policy OTL especially in its first decade got caught up in corruption, mismanagement, and the human rights violations of the country struggling with transitioning out 3rd World status and being an experimental authoritarian state. This all led to horror stories of forced abortions and infanticide of girls etc.
Now, TTL Netherlands is a highly indusrialized stable democracy. If anyone can pull off a humane population control policy, they are near the top of the list. But in the 1920s I still see some issues due to the perceived lower status of girls. And if the policy is too successful, there'll be a population crash eventually. I dunno, I think if I was designing a policy I'd do a Two-Child policy with a monetary incentive targeting the poorest to have only one, but not penalizing them. Just my 2 cents. Your writing this week has been very intellectually stimulating!
On the other subject... Promoting bisexuality as pop control in the 1920s! Please tell us how that's going over with other countries' publics! More than a few eyebrows lifted with that one I'm sure!
Now, TTL Netherlands is a highly indusrialized stable democracy. If anyone can pull off a humane population control policy, they are near the top of the list. But in the 1920s I still see some issues due to the perceived lower status of girls. And if the policy is too successful, there'll be a population crash eventually. I dunno, I think if I was designing a policy I'd do a Two-Child policy with a monetary incentive targeting the poorest to have only one, but not penalizing them. Just my 2 cents. Your writing this week has been very intellectually stimulating!
On the other subject... Promoting bisexuality as pop control in the 1920s!
Please tell us how that's going over with other countries' publics! More than a few eyebrows lifted with that one I'm sure!
Glen
Moderator
A fair point!
Indeed, indeed, but we shall see how it plays out...
The second child actually doesn't cost that much, so a lot of the higher echelons will pay for it no problem, with the poorer needing to try to keep to one. Over 2 is when the taxes really get high.
Glad to hear it!
On the other subject... Promoting bisexuality as pop control in the 1920s!
You are right, of course.
Glen
Moderator
Margaret May Thatcher (often called Maggie May) was a poet and essayist who emerged in the early 20th century as a prominent voice in the ethical and moral debates of the time. Thatcher, a New Englander born and bred, was one of the first public figures to come forward as actively being in a committed homophilic relationship as well as one of the first and most ardent anti-Malthusian polemicists. She railed at Van Der Bogard's theory of homophilia as some natural population control mechanisim. Instead Maggie May argued that while reproduction required heterophilic acts, love itself transcended procreation and should be based on the matching of minds and souls, not on, as she often said, 'the plumbing'. She felt that Van Der Bogard and his adherents patronized and debased homophilia.
As a anti-Malthusian, she was against the 'attack on human life and progress' that she felt the Malthusians represented, and suggested that Malthusianism was the greatest threat to the heritage of Liberalism since Korsgaardism in the 1880s-90s. She argued that progress and innovation, (Yankee Know-How) could get ahead of the Malthusian curve and that Malthusians were alarmists who would sacrifice the sacredness of human life for some fantasical calamity that was far from happening. She also encouraged homophilic couples to band together with other couples of the opposite sex to have children, so that 'regardless of who one loves, the wonders and responsibilities of parenthood can be embraced by all people of good will'. She also spoke eloquently against the extension of abortion to the last trimester, first demonstrated in the Netherlands - 'murder of the unborn to control the population is humanity at its worst'.
Glen
Moderator
The Ladd disclosure, debate over biphilia and homophilic relations, as well as the rise of the Malthusian Clubs and later political parties, with their emphasis on policies that would limit growth of the population even if radical compared to previous stances, led to a small but vociferouos backlash among more conservative thinkers. One of the most notorious of the age was Maurice Cavalier, an Anglican Reverend from the Province of North Carolina in the DSA. Reverend Cavalier was famous for his series of Kinetographed sermons railing against biphilia as a lie and a cover for ungodly sodomic and and fricatrice sexual acts, and the Malthusian 'Cult of Death' with its support of third trimester abortion which he termed 'Infanticide' (he also went so far as to argue for the banning of all abortion), and euthanasia which he labeled 'Consentual Murder'. He also preached against taxation of families to keep their size down as being punitive against the poor and forcing into poverty large families. His sermons became popular throughout the DSA, Britain, South Africa, and the Australias (though as much for his animated speaking style as the content of his speeches, which only a minority of his audience agreed with wholeheartedly on every point).
Yup, it was high time the "fire 'n brimstone" crowd weighed in on recent events. I'm surprised Cavalier's (interesting name, btw) views were picked up by folks in Britain yet not in the USA.
Incidentally, whatever became of Methodism and Baptism in North America, were they butterflied away?
Nice couple of updates, Glen!
Incidentally, whatever became of Methodism and Baptism in North America, were they butterflied away?
Nice couple of updates, Glen!
Glen
Moderator
He's considered a backwoods Southron kook in the USA. There are conservatives against these cultural movements in the USA, but the ones that are being listened to are more cultured and nuanced in their approach.
Oh, they still exist alright, but they are just two of many Protestant denominations. In the USA the largest church is actually the Catholic Church (though a plurality and not a majority) and in the DSA it is, hands down, the Anglican Church with the exceptions of Indiana where amonst the members of the Civilized Tribes there is more diversity of Protestantism, and Cuba where Catholicism is still strong.
Thank you.
Is Margaret May Thatcher suppose to be related to OTL's Margaret Thatcher in some way?
I'm off for a couple of days and three new updates stack up Wheee!
I'm curious, how far do/did they go with this? I would be quite surprised if they're doing anything other than just decriminalization, that's to say, making homophilic relations no more illegal than male/female relations. but, and this might just be me, it almost sounds like they might have gone farther.
also, it'll be interesting to see what the one child policy does to dutch demographics, as female infanticide seems likely to be considerably less widespread. among other shaping factors that might be different.
I have to say that TTL's "margaret thatcher" is probably the funniest thing I've seen all week.
I'm curious, how far do/did they go with this? I would be quite surprised if they're doing anything other than just decriminalization, that's to say, making homophilic relations no more illegal than male/female relations. but, and this might just be me, it almost sounds like they might have gone farther.
also, it'll be interesting to see what the one child policy does to dutch demographics, as female infanticide seems likely to be considerably less widespread. among other shaping factors that might be different.
I have to say that TTL's "margaret thatcher" is probably the funniest thing I've seen all week.
Glen
Moderator
I'm off for a couple of days and three new updates stack up Wheee!
Yep.
Actually, from my researches into the decriminalization that happened under the Napoleonic Code and it's likely lingering, then in fact that was already in place, making going farther quite possible, in fact. So yes, they have gone a bit farther than just decriminalizing.
Indeed.
I am gratified if you found some mirth in that.
Of course, the question is, why has no one made anything of the Maggie May bit?
Glen
Moderator
Traditionally, abortion was considered a form of homicide after the age of the quickening. Indeed, the Catholic Church had affirmed this in the mid 19th century. However, for legal purposes this was a tricky marker as the time of the quickening could vary by several weeks for different women. Therefore, many countries went to the standard of the first trimester as their cut off for legal abortion. However, the status quo was challenged by the Malthusians, who began to advocate for abortion on demand throughout pregnancy, arguing that it was criminal to bring an unwanted and unneeded life into this world on the brink of collapse from overcrowding. While many were willing to see the age allowance extended from 12 to 15 weeks, increasing it further was a controversial issue.
Glen
Moderator
