Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[Geordie]

But give it time!

I appreciate these things take time. I imagine that any Southron Kinee based in India from 1900 will be no more culturally insensitive than something served up by Hollywood, or indeed Ealing and Pinewood in 1950 or even later. While I deplore the fact that there is still racism, I also applaud the fact that this seems to be a TL with a lot less at that period of time than our own.

Thanks, that's what I've been going for. Actually, a lot of the parallelism ITTL comes from the internal logic of the timeline as opposed to just replicating OTL events.

That's why I like it so much. It isn't copy-pasting OTL, nor is it changing things "because, butterflies!" The TL is - to my mind - internally consistent. Also, I always appreciate when a writer takes time to look at science, culture and technology. "Who conquered who, and when?" Is vital to most TLs, as the bones of the skeleton. Things such as culture, art, technology, language, science and others: these really add the flesh that turns a TL into a much more realistic world.

 

[The Uchronian]

Liking these new update, but I'm having trouble with this one thing.....how, exactly, did you come up with "icewing" for airplanes? I mean, sure, I guess maybe it could come from the ice that can form on the wings at higher altitudes, but....I dunno, it seems too strange and unwieldy to be really workable, though.....even if it is a pretty unique piece of terminology.

I appreciate these things take time. I imagine that any Southron Kinee based in India from 1900 will be no more culturally insensitive than something served up by Hollywood, or indeed Ealing and Pinewood in 1950 or even later. While I deplore the fact that there is still racism, I also applaud the fact that this seems to be a TL with a lot less at that period of time than our own.

That's why I like it so much. It isn't copy-pasting OTL, nor is it changing things "because, butterflies!" The TL is - to my mind - internally consistent. Also, I always appreciate when a writer takes time to look at science, culture and technology. "Who conquered who, and when?" Is vital to most TLs, as the bones of the skeleton. Things such as culture, art, technology, language, science and others: these really add the flesh that turns a TL into a much more realistic world.

That much I can agree with, as I've thought about doing similar things in my own TLs; it can be quite fun to discover similarities like that, IMO.

 

[stevep]

Liking these new update, but I'm having trouble with this one thing.....how, exactly, did you come up with "icewing" for airplanes? I mean, sure, I guess maybe it could come from the ice that can form on the wings at higher altitudes, but....I dunno, it seems too strange and unwieldy to be really workable, though.....even if it is a pretty unique piece of terminology.



That much I can agree with, as I've thought about doing similar things in my own TLs; it can be quite fun to discover similarities like that, IMO.

CaliBoy1990

I think ice is an abbreviation for internal combustion engine, as its the development of those that makes heavier than air craft practical.

Steve

 

[The Uchronian]

CaliBoy1990

I think ice is an abbreviation for internal combustion engine, as its the development of those that makes heavier than air craft practical.

Steve

Hmm....well, alright, that makes quite a bit more sense, I guess. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[Glen]

I appreciate these things take time. I imagine that any Southron Kinee based in India from 1900 will be no more culturally insensitive than something served up by Hollywood, or indeed Ealing and Pinewood in 1950 or even later.

True - we can probably do somewhat better than that even from the get-go.

While I deplore the fact that there is still racism, I also applaud the fact that this seems to be a TL with a lot less at that period of time than our own.

Let us say, rather, that it is a 'kinder, gentler' racism than our own. Still wrong, but not nearly as violent or ingrained. It is fading faster than IOTL as well, but it is not there yet.

That's why I like it so much. It isn't copy-pasting OTL, nor is it changing things "because, butterflies!" The TL is - to my mind - internally consistent. Also, I always appreciate when a writer takes time to look at science, culture and technology. "Who conquered who, and when?" Is vital to most TLs, as the bones of the skeleton. Things such as culture, art, technology, language, science and others: these really add the flesh that turns a TL into a much more realistic world.

Thank you very much - I certainly agree with that perspective.

 

[Glen]

Liking these new update, but I'm having trouble with this one thing.....how, exactly, did you come up with "icewing" for airplanes? I mean, sure, I guess maybe it could come from the ice that can form on the wings at higher altitudes, but....I dunno, it seems too strange and unwieldy to be really workable, though.....even if it is a pretty unique piece of terminology.

Internal Combustion Engine + wing = I.C.E. wing = icewing. Basically, ice becomes the term for an internal combustion engine, and can turn up all sorts of places...

That much I can agree with, as I've thought about doing similar things in my own TLs; it can be quite fun to discover similarities like that, IMO.

Indeed, indeed.

 

[Glen]

CaliBoy1990

I think ice is an abbreviation for internal combustion engine, as its the development of those that makes heavier than air craft practical.

Steve

Hmm....well, alright, that makes quite a bit more sense, I guess. Thanks for pointing this out.

Yep. Got it in one, Steve my boy!

 

[Glen]

The last president of the 19th century, Steven Ladd, died in 1917. He had lived a quite life after his presidency, mostly in the Pennsylvania countryside. However, he would spark from beyond the grave one of the greatest presidential controversies of all time, and in fact launch another round of debate on the nature of the United States of America. Steven Ladd's executor, on posthumous direction from former President Ladd himself, released a series of letters written by Steven Ladd during the latter years of his life, but starting near the end of his presidency in 1900, that addressed the subject of the second great love of his life, a person he could not marry or acknowledge, because that person was another man. Though his lover would live with him from 1901 until his own death in 1915, it was never acknowledged or leaked during either man's life. Steven Ladd made a point of stating that his marriage earlier in life had in fact been a love match and not a lie, and that he had the capacity to love both women and men, caring more about the content of their hearts than their plumbing (a paraphrase from Steven Ladd's letters). President Steven Ladd called from beyond the grave for legalizing the ability of people to love who they will, and apologized for not having the courage to campaign for it during his life. Historians generally agree that this sensational disclosure launched the great debate on sexuality in the United States of America, and from thence around the world.

 

[The Uchronian]

Simply beautiful.

The last president of the 19th century, Steven Ladd, died in 1917. He had lived a quite life after his presidency, mostly in the Pennsylvania countryside. However, he would spark from beyond the grave one of the greatest presidential controversies of all time, and in fact launch another round of debate on the nature of the United States of America. Steven Ladd's executor, on posthumous direction from former President Ladd himself, released a series of letters written by Steven Ladd during the latter years of his life, but starting near the end of his presidency in 1900, that addressed the subject of the second great love of his life, a person he could not marry or acknowledge, because that person was another man. Though his lover would live with him from 1901 until his own death in 1915, it was never acknowledged or leaked during either man's life. Steven Ladd made a point of stating that his marriage earlier in life had in fact been a love match and not a lie, and that he had the capacity to love both women and men, caring more about the content of their hearts than their plumbing (a paraphrase from Steven Ladd's letters). President Steven Ladd called from beyond the grave for legalizing the ability of people to love who they will, and apologized for not having the courage to campaign for it during his life. Historians generally agree that this sensational disclosure launched the great debate on sexuality in the United States of America, and from thence around the world.

That....is.....simply......awesome.

That is truly wonderfully befitting, Glen; thank you so much.

 

[Glen]

That....is.....simply......awesome.

That is truly wonderfully befitting, Glen; thank you so much.

You are welcome. I have actually been planning to have this reveal for quite a long time. While I might have held it up a bit longer, with the SCOTUS rulings on DOMA today, it just seemed apropos to do so now - quite frankly, when I did the math on ages, it actually was pretty easy to have it fall roughly in the timeline's current pacing.

 

[Cylon_Number_14]

Coincidently yesterday I was reading about President Buchanan who is thought to have been homosexual and in a long term relationship with housemate Senator (later VP) William R King until King's death from tuberculosis. Upon Buchanan's death, his niece whom he had adopted young when her parents died, destroyed books' worth of correspondence and diary pages between and about Buchanan & King. I thought "imagine if she hadn't done that."

Glen, you magnificent bastard, have artfully begun to explore that!

 

[Glen]

Coincidently yesterday I was reading about President Buchanan who is thought to have been homosexual and in a long term relationship with housemate Senator (later VP) William R King until King's death from tuberculosis. Upon Buchanan's death, his niece whom he had adopted young when her parents died, destroyed books' worth of correspondence and diary pages between and about Buchanan & King. I thought "imagine if she hadn't done that."

Glen, you magnificent bastard, have artfully begun to explore that!

Thank you! Yes, that too would have been a very interesting what if though I fear IOTL it would have been revealed to a culture unready to face such a concept. TTL I believe is ready to start such.

 

[stevep]

Glen

Cat meet pigeons. Hopefully this has further progressive impact but fear that sooner or later there will be a back-lash against the general liberal tendency of the major powers in this world. Something like this could be a trigger because the main religions and related culture all strongly fear/detest homosexuality. Even at this stages there is a lot of hostility in many areas so have to see how things develop.

Steve

 

[Glen]

Glen

Cat meet pigeons.

Sorry, lost me on that one.

Hopefully this has further progressive impact but fear that sooner or later there will be a back-lash against the general liberal tendency of the major powers in this world.

There was; it was called Korsgaardism. However, I am sure there will be other back-lashes from time to time.

Something like this could be a trigger because the main religions and related culture all strongly fear/detest homosexuality.

Well, we'll have to see how that plays out, don't we. Note that Ladd was unable to come out about his bisexuality until after the death of both his lover and himself. I think that reflects that there is a lot of the concerns you are talking about. However, upon review of the history of gay rights movements through the centuries and world-wide, I think that there are certainly reasons to believe that there is some traction to be found on supporting a more liberal stance on human relations.

Even at this stages there is a lot of hostility in many areas so have to see how things develop.

Steve

Indeed, as always, time will tell....

 

[stevep]

Sorry, lost me on that one.

Glen

There's a phase, which something starts a major storm of throwing the cat amongst the pigeons. That's what I was referring to. Possibly a bit too vague or possibly its only well known this side of the pond.

Steve

 

[Glen]

Glen

There's a phase, which something starts a major storm of throwing the cat amongst the pigeons. That's what I was referring to. Possibly a bit too vague or possibly its only well known this side of the pond.

Steve

No, I get it now, just needed a bit more context.

 

[W.W.A.F.T.]

I'm floored

The Further Romantic Adventures of President Steven Ladd

well now, that is one astounding update, talk about the unexpected. what on earth are the 1920s going to do with this, I have trouble fathoming it.

Bravo glen, on a tremendously bold move.

Glen

Cat meet pigeons. Hopefully this has further progressive impact but fear that sooner or later there will be a back-lash against the general liberal tendency of the major powers in this world. Something like this could be a trigger because the main religions and related culture all strongly fear/detest homosexuality. Even at this stages there is a lot of hostility in many areas so have to see how things develop.

Steve

Naturally I'd expect a huge conservative backdraft to manifest itself right away, gut reaction always happen more quickly than well reasoned responses. additionally this issue has sprung onto the public conciousness quite suddenly, I expect the intitial visceral response to be particularly intense as a result. I expect a furor would be whipped up in churches and social gatherings across the country. in the longer term, if matters of sexual freedom begin to be seriously discussed, one would expect organizations dedicated to "strengthening america's moral backbone" to spring up like weeds. but, I expect things will work out just fine.

consider OTL, it was in the hugely condemnatory atmosphere of the 1950s that the first gasps of the gay rights and gay liberation movement began, prompting considerable backlash. and after that there was still decades of work in an atmosphere of great persecution to go. TTL it's going to be a long hard road to acceptance, that begins with ignorance prevailing throughout the nation, but, it was never going to be anything other than an uphill battle.


********

what's more interesting to me is to consider how this might effect society's constuction of sexuality. OTL it was at the end of the 19th century that we solidified our dualistic conception of sexual orentation. one wonders if, given the already very different 19th century, and the addition of the example of Ladd's bisexuality, TTL might develop a more nuanced idea of human sexuality.

also to consider is that the topic of sexuality has just swept into america's social discourse at a time when there are still cowboys alive who recall playing around with men because there were no women. and in fact, given what sans mormonism is probably a much smaller and more rugged population in the mountain west, escapades between cowboys might still be a living tradition in a few places. add to that that this world has more native americans, and more vibrant and alive native american cultures possessing thier own conceptions of sexual and romantic conduct.

will the open mindedness of some native groups be used as grounds to persecute them? to drive an assimilationist agenda for the hudson territory? will people run off to try and live amongst the indians? build thier own "sodomite colonies" in the hudson territory? will the deists promote open mindedness or fall into the opposition camp? what will the rest of the world think? there's so much to consider.

not least of which is what these people and issues are called, "gay" being a somewhat arbitrary choice, it's likely TTL uses another name. I recall an episode of firefly where the term "sly" was used instead of "gay", if that's at all interesting. and of course there's the obvious nickname of "Laddies".

 

[Glen]

well now, that is one astounding update, talk about the unexpected.

Glad I can still keep you guys astounded and surprised.

what on earth are the 1920s going to do with this, I have trouble fathoming it.

Oh, time will tell. IOTL, there was quite a lot of leeway on sexuality in certain segments of society if not legally. We shall see what happens here...

Bravo glen, on a tremendously bold move.

Thank you!

Naturally I'd expect a huge conservative backdraft to manifest itself right away, gut reaction always happen more quickly than well reasoned responses.

Oh, I am sure you are right. However, it will be the long term ramifications that will be interesting I suspect.

additionally this issue has sprung onto the public conciousness quite suddenly, I expect the intitial visceral response to be particularly intense as a result.

In the US, yes. However, there is some precedent as their close trade partner in Europe, the French Empire, decriminalized homosexuality since the 1790s.

I expect a furor would be whipped up in churches and social gatherings across the country.

Hmmm, yes and no. The Catholic Church in the USA and French Empire is actually quite liberal, not to mention the various Deist faiths. The rest of the Protestant Churches in the USA will not be happy, however.

in the longer term, if matters of sexual freedom begin to be seriously discussed, one would expect organizations dedicated to "strengthening america's moral backbone" to spring up like weeds. but, I expect things will work out just fine.

Well, we shall see - there may be some other social trends that interact with these in interesting ways...

consider OTL, it was in the hugely condemnatory atmosphere of the 1950s that the first gasps of the gay rights and gay liberation movement began, prompting considerable backlash.

Yes, the 1950s were rather like that. TTL early 20th century though is not the same as the 1950s.

and after that there was still decades of work in an atmosphere of great persecution to go. TTL it's going to be a long hard road to acceptance, that begins with ignorance prevailing throughout the nation, but, it was never going to be anything other than an uphill battle.


********

Yep, that is true - change only comes over time.

what's more interesting to me is to consider how this might effect society's constuction of sexuality. OTL it was at the end of the 19th century that we solidified our dualistic conception of sexual orentation. one wonders if, given the already very different 19th century, and the addition of the example of Ladd's bisexuality, TTL might develop a more nuanced idea of human sexuality.

Yes, I do rather think there might be some of this...

also to consider is that the topic of sexuality has just swept into america's social discourse at a time when there are still cowboys alive who recall playing around with men because there were no women. and in fact, given what sans mormonism is probably a much smaller and more rugged population in the mountain west, escapades between cowboys might still be a living tradition in a few places.

Oh dear God, you just went Brokeback Mountain on the DSA!

add to that that this world has more native americans, and more vibrant and alive native american cultures possessing thier own conceptions of sexual and romantic conduct.

That is quite true.

will the open mindedness of some native groups be used as grounds to persecute them? to drive an assimilationist agenda for the hudson territory?

I won't keep you in suspense on this - no.

will people run off to try and live amongst the indians? build thier own "sodomite colonies" in the hudson territory?

Wow, that is some interesting ideas! I don't believe it will come to that, but really a great what if in its own right!

will the deists promote open mindedness or fall into the opposition camp?

Most of the Deist Churches lean libertarian, or at least are not overly condemning (given also heavy strain of universalism in many of them) but the question will be whether this goes against the laws of nature, which God set in place in the beginning of all things. I think you know that some at least will rail against it as unnatural.

what will the rest of the world think? there's so much to consider.

not least of which is what these people and issues are called, "gay" being a somewhat arbitrary choice, it's likely TTL uses another name. I recall an episode of firefly where the term "sly" was used instead of "gay", if that's at all interesting. and of course there's the obvious nickname of "Laddies".

Yes, you may have noticed that I avoided in the update itself using any specific terms, as they will likely be different ITTL to some degree. Lesbian is a fairly old term so it may still show in both timelines, but time will tell overall. Still looking up some things to determine (in the end, probably something made up, as this is likely a divergence in language).

 

[Geordie]

The reaction regarding Ladd's revelation may well be tempered by how his time in office was viewed politically. If he was a divisive figure when president, his opponents will have another stick with which to beat his memory. If he was more conciliatory, especially enough for his political enemies to be able to respect him, the reaction may be more nuanced. Obviously, what people in the capitol may think about this could well differ to how the people they represent feel.

I agree that Ladd "outing himself" as being a "bisexual" will probably prevent any duall-ist straight/gay theories from forming.


It is a bit depressing that your world in 1917 will probably cope better with this news than our world would for a very long time afterwards, but as ever, the writing is very good...

 

[Cylon_Number_14]

The reaction regarding Ladd's revelation may well be tempered by how his time in office was viewed politically. If he was a divisive figure when president, his opponents will have another stick with which to beat his memory. If he was more conciliatory, especially enough for his political enemies to be able to respect him, the reaction may be more nuanced. Obviously, what people in the capitol may think about this could well differ to how the people they represent feel..

This is why a Buchanan analogue AH would not work, as he happened to end up considered divisive and indecisive at precisely the wrong time. He's now generally considered the worse president OTL. Unfairly as it obviously would be, his shortcomings as president would have been twisted in all sorts of ways in the late 19th Century around his sexuality. Probably for the best that serious speculation was held off for a century or so.