TL-191: After the End

You're recalling a scene that never existed.



That's a massively huge mis-recollection you've got. You seriously thought a ten year old kid would walk all the way from Mississippi so he can get operated in Dr. O'Doull's tent?



No, it was "impenetrable" because the United States didn't bother penetrating it, because there was no reason to head into Mississippi in the first place in this war.

Yeah. Truth is, even Vicksburg and Jackson weren't real important in the '40s, and they were two of the state's larger cities(with the latter being the state capital, of course). Turtledove had the right idea with the U.S. Army going thru Georgia and Alabama, I think, given the higher proportion of industry in both those states(especially for AL with the iron works in Birmingham and the rocket factory in Huntsville).

By the way Dave, if you're out there, I would like to apologize again for the poorly thought-out comment I wrote out last month.....I hope I didn't offend you on accident.
 
I love what you've done with this TL, David (in fact, I think this thread was what introduced me to this site); however, I have some nagging questions:
What happened with Iran? I assume there was no revolution there.

No Islamist revolution in TTL, although there is still social unrest due to fluctuating energy prices and political liberalization.

Did the US get over its oil addiction?

It's less of an issue for the US in TTL, since they have access to far larger petroleum reserves in TTL. International energy policies will feature in the next update though.

Is the JWR as belligerent as OTL North Korea, or do they mostly keep to themselves?

Mostly to themselves.

Wow, just wow. I've been following this timeline for the better part of a year or so and I'm loving it. David, thank you so much for writing this.

You're welcome!

I am a huge fan of alternate history and this is such a well-written timeline. I love the integration of Canada, Morgan Reynolds' presidency, Greg Bliss' novels, the comeback of the Republican Party, the Nihilists, the former Confederate States being akin to post-War Germany with the shame of the population reductions, etc.

The only real criticisms I have of the timeline is that rock and roll doesn't exist and I was a little dissapointed that real-world politicians (such as George McGovern) didn't get a stab at the presidency. Those issues aside, you've got an excellent timeline here and I'm looking forward to the conclusion.

As other jycee and Flubber have pointed out, there is no real equivalent to OTL Rock in TTL. To be fair, I did not really go into a lot of detail about American (or world) culture in the first post. I may post a redone version of the first post in the future, but that wouldn't be for some time after I post the 2000s.

A question for David, if he visits this thread during the coming days :

Dave, did this older thread give you a few ideas about post-GWII society and popculture ? ;)

If so, then I'm all the more glad. There are tons of great and plausible ideas in that thread. :)

I'm afraid I haven't really gotten to chance to visit that thread. :eek:

By the way Dave, if you're out there, I would like to apologize again for the poorly thought-out comment I wrote out last month.....I hope I didn't offend you on accident.

No worries.
 
^ A redone version would be interesting. :) For one thing I felt the 1950's especially were overlooked. So I'd be cool for that decade to be covered in much more detail.

David, did you check out the Photo's from Timeline-191 thread yet? You could get some inspiration there if you want.
 
Fa sho, my brother, fa sho. :cool:

While we're on the topic of music, I wonder what the state of country music is in TTL. Does it exist and if so, does it sound like the country music of OTL, either past or present? Part of me can't help but imagine TTL's version of country music being much darker and edgier.

It's much less prominent in TTL due to the lack of a national US market (even before the Second Great War), and the devastation suffered by the South during the conflict itself.

Although I didn't go into enough detail, folk music enjoyed a spell of popularity during much of the 1960s (before the Fourth Pacific War), but most of the influence for folk's popularity came from outside the former Confederacy.

There's always African-Americans up north(including those who could have fled the South before the *Holocaust started).....and here's an idea: what about Jamaica? Maybe TTL's *rock can have a fair amount of Jamaican influence(think: Reggae!) as well; I'm thinking that NYC, Baltimore, and Boston could all be possible centers for Jamaican culture.

Hmm, I don't believe that I have covered Jamaican culture as much as I should have; its influence on US music will certainly feature in the last update. Not for any equivalent of rock, but for something else.
 
Last edited:

Vexacus

Banned
Is there an updates-only version of this thread as trying to find the updates amongst 90 pages is more than a little difficult
 
1988
UoxIUB6.png

Leo Enos (S-MA)/Alfred Turnbull (S-ON): 360 EV
Archibald Young (D-MN)/Nick Collins (D-NJ): 141 EV
John Smith (R-CA)/Michael O'Connor (R-MY): 106 EV
 
Another excellent election map Blue. :D Keep up the good work.

On that subject what elections haven't you done for After the End? I think 1992 was missing some VP candidates, and I don't think you did 1996 either.
 
Another excellent election map Blue. :D Keep up the good work.

On that subject what elections haven't you done for After the End? I think 1992 was missing some VP candidates, and I don't think you did 1996 either.
I'm redoing 1992 next, and no, I haven't done 1996. 1980 needs to be redone, since its hard to get the GOP to a electoral majority without an outright landslide.
 
Odd popculture-related question, but what would be the proverbial good sci-fi horror movie in late 20th century TL-191 ? What would be their Alien ?
 
Odd popculture-related question, but what would be the proverbial good sci-fi horror movie in late 20th century TL-191 ? What would be their Alien ?

I'm not sure if there's been a science-fiction horror film produced in TTL that's equivalent (at least, not yet).

In fact, the closest equivalent to Alien in TTL isn't a movie but a musical. From the 1980s update:

September 8, 1982 onwards—The first “Space Opera” is preformed at the Vienna State Opera, in Vienna, Austria-Hungary. The play, On the Ore Hauler “Caballero” [11], based on a short story by Gershom Kafka, scored by Szabolcsi Milena, and directed by the world renowned playwright Joshua Tolmach, is a massive hit, and virtually creates the new musical genre of Space Opera.

* * *

[11] [For an idea of the plot and tone of On the Ore Hauler “Caballero”, imagine if Gilbert and Sullivan had been the creative team behind Alien].
 
I'm not sure if there's been a science-fiction horror film produced in TTL that's equivalent (at least, not yet).

In fact, the closest equivalent to Alien in TTL isn't a movie but a musical. From the 1980s update:

I remember that one. :p But I meant serious horror, not a musical horror comedy. :)
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure if there's been a science-fiction horror film produced in TTL that's equivalent (at least, not yet).

In fact, the closest equivalent to Alien in TTL isn't a movie but a musical. From the 1980s update:

Wouldn't the proverbial Sci Fi film of OTL be Star Wars and not Alien. At least in terms of cultural impact? (Personally I prefer Alien, but it is not the cultural landmark that Star Wars was).

There doesn't seem to be ab equivalent of Star Wars yet. TTL's films, as described by David, still sound very New Hollywood / New Wave-y despite the prominence of Sci Fi, Spec Fic, Fantasy genres.

I wonder if the Marketing game changer will occur in 2000s.

As other jycee and Flubber have pointed out, there is no real equivalent to OTL Rock in TTL. To be fair, I did not really go into a lot of detail about American (or world) culture in the first post. I may post a redone version of the first post in the future, but that wouldn't be for some time after I post the 2000s.

A redone version of the 50s would be awesome if you ever have time to do it. You wen't into very specific detail in the 60s (there were a few single year posts), but filling in the culture section would be really cool.

Hmm, I don't believe that I have covered Jamaican culture as much as I should have; its influence on US music will certainly feature in the last update. Not for any equivalent of rock, but for something else.

I'm sensing TTL's version of Reggae / Ska / Calypso etc etc is about to make big impact.

Which also brings up the question of how has Africa influence Europe culturally? Africa has kept much stronger ties with Europe, especially Portugal and Germany with some of their colonies. Some African countries should be much better developed in TTL than in OTL. They are bound to have some impact. African genres of music (or African inspired genres) should be become rather influential.
 
Wouldn't the proverbial Sci Fi film of OTL be Star Wars and not Alien. At least in terms of cultural impact? (Personally I prefer Alien, but it is not the cultural landmark that Star Wars was).

Could you please read more carefully next time ? :rolleyes:

I wrote "proverbial good sci-fi horror movie", not "proverbial good sci-fi movie".

There doesn't seem to be an equivalent of Star Wars yet. TTL's films, as described by David, still sound very New Hollywood / New Wave-y despite the prominence of Sci Fi, Spec Fic, Fantasy genres.

Indeed. The whole "Endurance Film" era that David mentioned is really reminescent of the OTL New Hollywood period.

I wonder if the Marketing game changer will occur in 2000s.

Yes.
 
Top