Lands of Red and Gold

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hm, the Congxie naming standards are rather amusing ("abstract given name" + "generic English surname"). :p

Jared, this is a minor nitpick, but maybe you could adress it : The TL has two chapters named "In The Balance". The first is that interlude in 20th century (?) East Africa, the second one is chapter 59.
 
So what impact will the Maori have on the Plirite faith in general?

I think Jared explained at one point that there is no real uniform Plirism, rather interpretations based on each society's mores and ideals. So I imagine Maori Plirism will interpret Balance as being mainly reflected respect and success and other qualities that make up the concept of mana.
 

Hnau

Banned
I believe the Maori now have what it takes to pull what we often call a "Meiji". Long live Aotearoa!!! :D
 
King Arapeta stepped outside, paused for a moment, then took seven paces forward. He raised his voice. “Ta mal-pa Pliri, ni gapu-pa Bula Gakal-girri marang.” There is but one Harmony, and only the Sevenfold Path will give it balance.

It seems that Nameless has managed to successfully convert King Arapeta to his religion... a religion whose declaration of faith is obviously inspired by the Shahada. :D
 
I believe the Maori now have what it takes to pull what we often call a "Meiji". Long live Aotearoa!!! :D

The Japanese had the 'blessing' of endemic smallpox and other diseases, which means that even with constant western contact they could still maintain the population necessary to industrialize. The Maori, on the other hand, are going to face a falling population no matter what as soon as regular trade with Europeans is established, making it extremely difficult to 'pull a meiji'.
 
Very interesting, so if the Nangu (or a subset thereof) manage to re-establish themselves within the Maori, does this mean we could see the beginnings of a seafaring Maori empire?

Quite possibly. Although the first thing the Maori will probably do is start using the new technologies (iron working, particularly) to fight each other. Such is life.

Hm, the Congxie naming standards are rather amusing ("abstract given name" + "generic English surname"). :p

They certainly can be. Although the "generic English surname" method isn't universal, and as can be gathered from this post, the Congxie having English surnames is not always an innocuous thing. (Although by the time of Accord Anderson, that's just become his surname.) And you still haven't seen the weirdest form of Congxie surnames: those which are primarily African but have Gaelic influence.

The given names, incidentally, come from a tradition which wasn't unknown even in OTL: naming people after "virtues". Although what Plirites consider a virtue isn't quite the same as what European Christians would perceive as one.

Jared, this is a minor nitpick, but maybe you could adress it : The TL has two chapters named "In The Balance". The first is that interlude in 20th century (?) East Africa, the second one is chapter 59.

I suppose I could call the second post "Still In the Balance".

Seriously, though, these details do slip through from time to time. I'll rename #59 to "Balancing Choices" in the rich text format, and ask a mod to change it in this thread.

So what impact will the Maori have on the Plirite faith in general?

Things will flow both ways, but as Roberto mentions, Plirism has no central hierarchy which dictates what people should believe. It also has considerable ability to syncretise (if that's a word) with existing beliefs. The Maori will no doubt adapt Plirism to suit their existing faith, although their own society will also be changed considerably.

I think Jared explained at one point that there is no real uniform Plirism, rather interpretations based on each society's mores and ideals. So I imagine Maori Plirism will interpret Balance as being mainly reflected respect and success and other qualities that make up the concept of mana.

In large part, although they will get some ideas from the mainland too. The biggest one is the idea of "decisiveness" and "no half-actions" which distinguishes Plirism.

I believe the Maori now have what it takes to pull what we often call a "Meiji". Long live Aotearoa!!! :D

That would be really cool:cool:

The Maori have been given a leg up from the semi-Bronze Age to the Iron Age. It's a start, but they would need to move very far, very fast to even catch up to where Japan was in 1500. To say nothing of having their population crash over the next century or so.

Which doesn't mean that they will become pushovers for European colonialism either, of course.

The Japanese had the 'blessing' of endemic smallpox and other diseases, which means that even with constant western contact they could still maintain the population necessary to industrialize. The Maori, on the other hand, are going to face a falling population no matter what as soon as regular trade with Europeans is established, making it extremely difficult to 'pull a meiji'.

The biggest advantage the Maori have is that they are, from the European perspective, at the arse-end of the world. A very long away, filled with a hostile population who would fiercely resist any conquest.

There's also not much there that would really interest European powers. Some gold in the South Island, if the Maori discover it and start working it, but that's about it. A few spices which can mostly be more easily grown in Aururia. New Zealand flax, which the Maori are perfectly willing to trade for. Timber, ditto.

So unless and until European powers start colonies just for the sake of having colonies (which was the late nineteenth century, in OTL), they probably won't bother doing more than trade with Aotearoa. Private filibusters may be another story - I'm not sure what the Maori equivalent would be to the White Rajahs of Sawarak.

It seems that Nameless has managed to successfully convert King Arapeta to his religion...

Why, yes. Yes he has. Much will follow from this.

a religion whose declaration of faith is obviously inspired by the Shahada. :D

Oh, the particular wording certainly has similarities to the Shahada. :D Later generations of scholars ITTL will have to deal with all sorts of conspiracy theories / secret histories that the Good Man and Plirism was inspired by some shipwrecked Muslism from northwestern Australia who somehow made his or her way to the Five Rivers around 1000 AD. Complete nonsense, of course - it is just a coincidence - but it will be one of the many popular modern myths about Aururia which show up ITTL. A bit like the ATL equivalent of Erich van Däniken and his ancient astronauts.

Of course, Islam isn't the only faith where there is some kind of recitation of belief as part of conversion/confirmation. Buddhism does something similar in its recitation of the Three Jewels.

I just read on wiki that the flavor for Inca Kola is based on lemon verbena but I assume that's a different plant?

Yes, it's a different plant. The common names for plants ITTL sometimes overlap with different plants which have the same common name in OTL. ITTL, "Verbena" becomes the generic name which Europeans assign to what are called "myrtles".

Lemon myrtle is what TTL calls lemon verbena. There are others - aniseed, cinnamon and curry - which will also be called verbenas ITTL. Lemon myrtle is used to flavour things even in OTL - when I drink tea (rarely) it's a blend partly flavoured with lemon myrtle - and will be used much more ATL.

The other main ATL name which will confuse OTL readers is "peppers". In OTL, of course, that originally applied to black pepper and long pepper, but the name pepper got applied to a whole host of other plants which also had head.

ITTL, those names get moved around a bit. What TTL calls "sweet peppers" are Aururian pepperbushes, mountain pepper and relatives in the genus Tasmannia, not the large, unspiced sweet pepper/bell pepper/capsicum of OTL. The OTL sweet pepper/bell pepper is ATL usually known as a pimento (or occasionally, still bell pepper). What in OTL is known as a pimento/pimiento is known ATL as a cherry pepper.

I'm sure that's all as clear as mud.
 
Re: Accord Anderson
interesting. Thats got to be tough writing in 'almost English'. Or do you have a good enough acquaintance with someone who speaks like that otl that you can get the rhythm right?

Actually, it reminds me of slightly overlietral renditions of eg AngloSaxon/Norse poetry.


As for names, Prudence, Charity, Chastity and Patience, just to name several that were quite popular not much more than a century ago.

Then look at Puritans in early Massachussets. "Increase" Mather, for instance. Actually as lot of those were full phrases...
 
Last edited:
Re: Accord Anderson
interesting. Thats got to be tough writing in 'almost English'. Or do you have a good enough acquaintance with someone who speaks like that otl that you can get the rhythm right?

Actually, it reminds me of slightly overlietral renditions of eg AngloSaxon/Norse poetry.

It wasn't based on any person I know. :D

Getting into that voice when writing as Accord Anderson is actually pretty straightforward. The problem is getting out of writing in that voice afterward...

As for names, Prudence, Charity, Chastity and Patience, just to name several that were quite popular not much more than a century ago.

Then look at Puritans in early Massachussets. "Increase" Mather, for instance. Actually as lot of those were full phrases...

Yes, there were certainly some of those style of names around in Europe in OTL. And this is a tradition that's Not Quite Dead even in OTL: Faith as a female name, for instance.

We know from Chapter 19 that one of the islands of OTL New Zealand will be named "Neufranken." I assume that's the one that gets colonized?

I wouldn't be so sure--all we know is that "Neufranken" is somewhere on OTL Zealandia--New Caledonia would be the other main possibility...

The weird thing about the name "Aotearoa" is that in the nineteenth century in OTL, it was used to mean either the North Island of New Zealand only, or New Zealand as a whole (North & South Islands, Stewart Island, etc). It only really settled on its modern meaning of the whole of New Zealand in the twentieth century.

So it's possible that Neufranken is the South Island. Or that it's New Caledonia, which is the only other major part of Zealandia still above sea level. (Aside from small fragments like Lord Howe Island and Norfolk Island).
 
They certainly can be. Although the "generic English surname" method isn't universal, and as can be gathered from this post, the Congxie having English surnames is not always an innocuous thing. (Although by the time of Accord Anderson, that's just become his surname.) And you still haven't seen the weirdest form of Congxie surnames: those which are primarily African but have Gaelic influence.

The given names, incidentally, come from a tradition which wasn't unknown even in OTL: naming people after "virtues". Although what Plirites consider a virtue isn't quite the same as what European Christians would perceive as one.

I understand the connection. And given that the Alleghenians created their country on the territory that mostly belonged to the Congxie until then, it does make sence.

Seriously, though, these details do slip through from time to time. I'll rename #59 to "Balancing Choices" in the rich text format, and ask a mod to change it in this thread.

Thanks. :) I've already changed the name of chapter 59 to your newly proposed name.
 
I know that Jared's suggested in the past the conversion of the Maori to the Plirite faith will not be complete - that it's possible that some Maori kings will adopt Catholicism, while others will hew to traditional beliefs. I would presume this is no longer in the running though. Provided the Nangu can ensure that King Arapeta's polity keeps a monopoly on ironworking for awhile, he should be able to form a dominant state which will be hard to dislodge in terms of cultural influence, even if the political/military influence wanes. In order to ensure that Christianity had a roughly even chance, you'd need the introduction to be almost concurrent with the Pliri faith, and that some European power was backing up their chosen protectorate with technology and trade.

One thing I have wondered about Aururia in general is how much European powers ITTL will look for supposed links between the local civilizations and India. IOTL, Europeans were very keen to find supposed links between Dravidian groups in South India and Australian Aborigines. Hell, as we discussed upthread, recent genetic studies suggest that at least some populations in Australia are around 15% South Asian in terms of ancestry (with how they got it a mystery), so it's not entirely implausible.

Still, I would think with Aururia being civilized in a way that Australia was not IOTL, the desire to find historical connections would be overwhelming. I know cranks have linked, for example, the Easter Island script to the untranslated one of the Indus Valley civilization. Once Harrappa gets uncovered I could see the idea of some ancient, globe-straddling Indian civilization becoming quite popular.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Oh, the particular wording certainly has similarities to the Shahada. :D Later generations of scholars ITTL will have to deal with all sorts of conspiracy theories / secret histories that the Good Man and Plirism was inspired by some shipwrecked Muslism from northwestern Australia who somehow made his or her way to the Five Rivers around 1000 AD. Complete nonsense, of course - it is just a coincidence - but it will be one of the many popular modern myths about Aururia which show up ITTL. A bit like the ATL equivalent of Erich van Däniken and his ancient astronauts

Between that and the conections people will make between Australia and the Aztecs it sounds like archeology and anthropology in this TL is going to be seriously fucked up:eek::eek:
 
Between that and the conections people will make between Australia and the Aztecs it sounds like archeology and anthropology in this TL is going to be seriously fucked up:eek::eek:

Well, the number of crazy archeological theories should increase exponentially with the number of civilizations they have to theorize about, right?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top