A Mongolian friend of mine said if Temüjin (OOC: Ghengis Khan) wasn't killed in 1206 just after uniting the Mongol tribes he would have gone on and invaded China and conquered a good part of it. Personally I think he had a few too many drinks. Could the Mongols have conquered a good part of China or is that pure ASB? If it did so how far could the Mongols have spread?
DBWI: Temüjin invades China
- Thread starter Johnrankins
- Start date
Which China? Western Xia - Possibly, though it won't stick. Jin - Maaaaaaaaaaaybe, but the Mongols will just be absorbed within a few generations. Song - Not a bloody chance, especially once the industrial revolution gets going.
He could probably conquer the Jin, but not the Song. Basically, he'd probably keep the trend of a foreign dynasty ruling northern China (Khitans-Liao, Jurchen-Jin, Mongols-whatever dynasty they found)
He was the first Mongol leader who united all the Mongol tribes. To be honest he did so in a pretty impressive manner before he was finally killed.
I am going to say this is not ASB. Your friend is right. History is full of things that seemed impossible happening. Like when Crassus took most of Parthia.
Depends on what you mean by conquered. The Mongols likely could sack and pillage a lot of the country side and maybe some small cities, but they couldn't hold any of them or control any of the country. At best they could carve a small portion of the north off. The rebellions that would pop up would end any rule in a generation or two.
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Sounds about right. To be honest I have a hard time seeing a bunch of horse bandits controlling an area as civilized as China.
I think they could do it. While the mongols were seen as uncivilized, their way of fighting was pretty advanced for their time. Their troops were very mobile and could strike hard and fast. I do not think they could have held China for long, but they could easily sack nearly all of it.
Although I doubt it would have that large of an effect on world history. At most, China is ruled by a mongol dynasty for a bit. At the least, they pillage and hurt china for a short while.
Honestly as a historical what if, it seems like a poor place for speculation.
Again it wouldn't be a matter of military domination but of societal and cultural differences. The Mongols may have had the ability to crush China but not rule it. The style of government that each culture was accustomed to wouldn't fit each other well. Any invader would need to rely on a bureaucracy to rule China and the Mongols lacked that ruling by chiefdoms controlled by the strongest warriors. If this Temujin was as good as OP says at best it would be similar to when the Visigoths sacked Rome, lots of plunder not much in the way of nation building.
The Mongols would be absolutely slaughtered. Sure, they were tough man-to-man, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to defeat the Chinese, who have the Great Wall, fairly defensible borders, massive strategic depth, a functioning, fairly modern state, and a huge army.
What would be interesting is how Central Asia and Eastern Europe develop. Eastern Europe will likely be a lot more Slavic without the settlement of the Mongols in the Durenek (Don) Basin. And the Rus might eventually form a coherent pan-national state, rather than the ridiculous little warring shitholes that it is now.
What would be interesting is how Central Asia and Eastern Europe develop. Eastern Europe will likely be a lot more Slavic without the settlement of the Mongols in the Durenek (Don) Basin. And the Rus might eventually form a coherent pan-national state, rather than the ridiculous little warring shitholes that it is now.
You have a point, like I said I think he had a few too many drinks.
This is pre industrial China we are talking about, its more or less a century before the industrial revolution in the Song.
Although I agree that the Mongols would not conquer the Song, but it would be close.
And another interesting thought is that without the Song who the hell would have an industrial revolution. Surely not the Mayans of the eastern continent, perhaps the arabs.
Well I guess the Parthians never defeated and absorbed the Seleucids then huh? Nor did the Saka to the Indo-Greeks, or the Persians themselves to the Medes.
While it's generally true that nomadic people have a tendency to not be able to hold on to what they take, there have been situations where they can quite possibly do so. China at the time was in such a position. Despite the Song's apparent strength, it was in its darkest time in that period. In such a situation, I can well see a Mongolian China occurring.
Speaking of which, a Mongolian China would have one hell of an impact on demographics, since the invasion of China would've likely prevented the Mongol migration westward from occurring. Hence no 7th Crusade as we know it, and no significant presence of the Altaic language groups in the Balkans and Pontic Steppe. Quite fascinating really.
I wouldn't count out the Mayans totally. Remember, they were responsible for invention of Calculus as a branch of mathematics after all.
I could also see some of the states on the Indian subcontinent as potential candidates.
OOC: this is a DBWI....essentially, we're in an alternate world where the Mongols didn't invade China.
Shouldn't this be in SW?