TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
I thought it was from Henry Turtledove? about how the CSA lost the Civil War and then leads to a history where Fascists instead rise in Germany lead by some painter named Adolf Hitler..?
I thought it was from Henry Turtledove? about how the CSA lost the Civil War and then leads to a history where Fascists instead rise in Germany lead by some painter named Adolf Hitler..?
Yeah, it should be Henry.
(If we go with the whole MacArthur given name theory.)There were already several "DBWI TL-191 books" discussions on AH.com over the years - here's one example :
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=83458
The best one I remember (but can't find right now) even had Tom_NUFC doing mockups of the alt-TL-191 bookcovers, complete with backcover blurbs about our OTL WWII.
EDIT: OK, I've found those older threads started by Tom. Here's a list :
DBWI: The Turtledove TL-191 Discussion Thread - The book cover parodies appear on page 4 and 5.
Turtledove's OTL novels in the TL-191 universe
Axis of TL-191
Last edited:
There definitely are works analogous to the "technothriller genre" from our world in TTL.
Who says such a series would be only twelve books in TTL?
Django Unchained (2012) - A fictional account of four OSS operatives, accompanied by the German spy King Schulz, go deep into the heart of the Confederate States to assassinate Jake Featherston, Donald Partridge, Saul Goldman and Ferdinand Koenig at a film showing. They are unknowingly assisted by Django, an escapee from the Confederacy's Population Reduction, who is planning a parallel assassination attempt. Throughout the film they are challenged by Colonel Calvin Candie of the Freedom Party Guards. The movie is notable for diverging from actual history by allowing the conspirators to succeed, presumably ending the Second Great War in 1943.
---
I know such a movie wouldn't actually be made ITTL because of parallelism, but it would be funny to see.
This does give me some ideas for the next update...
My little contribution to this TL : An early 80s ad for Eagle Airways.
(The picture is a reworking of this hypothetical profile art for a TWA-operated Lockheed L-2000. The Lockheed L-2000 was one of the OTL 60s American supersonic airliner projects, but unlike the Concorde or the Tu-144, it never got past the mockup stage. I figured it would be a sufficient stand-in for an ATL cousin of the Concorde.
Thank you! This is fantastic! This is definitely canon. Always good to have visual materials to accompany the text.
Thanks for the promotion to canon.
Incidentally, what brand would EA's supersonics be ? Are they Boeings ? Or some other American brand entirely, possibly fictional ? They'd need a catchy model name too. If we'd follow the name of the OTL Concorde and alternate naming clichés, I guess the SST could be called "Liberty", "Union", "Columbia" or something else in that vein. Though maybe it could be something less frequented and more international-sounding. (After all, the name of the OTL Concorde doesn't refer to any specific aspect of British or French history, but to the camaraderie of the two nations when working on grandiose engineering projects.)
I'd love to atually get a bit more information about how British & French politics took a turn following the SGW - I know that the Labour Party seem to have held in power in the post-war world until the Progressive Liberal Party won in the the most recent election, but it'd be good to get a list of PM of Great Britain as well as the same for France including a list of Presidents of the Fourth French Republic. Also, just how leftist is the Labour Party ITTL - I'd assume either a degree of moderation following being in power for such a prolonged amount of time is likely?
Also, just to check, is Belgium still a sovereign nation under indefinite German occupation or as it been amalgamated into the German Empire proper?
Also, just to check, is Belgium still a sovereign nation under indefinite German occupation or as it been amalgamated into the German Empire proper?
Another thing that's crossed my mind. In OTL, Ivo Peters (a famous railway enthusiast best known for his photographs of the long-closed Somerset & Dorset line) travelled to Ireland after WWII to photograph the Tralee & Dingle light railway before it closed. Would the Irish have allowed him to do so ITTL?
The American Football League began play in 1909 and was the first professional football circuit. Due to travel constraints (railroads were the primary means of transportation), teams were largely restricted to the northeastern and Midwest United States. During the First Great War, the league was forced to suspend operations, as the draft had scooped up the talent. The AFL resumed play in 1918. The first two decades of the league's existence were turbulent, and not just because of the war. While several teams in large cities -- e.g., the New York Gothams, the Chicago Bears and Cardinals, the Philadelphia Athletics (later the Barrels) -- were mainstays throughout this period, many teams from small markets flitted in and out of the league from season to season. It wasn't until the late '20s that membership stabilized. By 1927, the AFL had 18 teams, arranged into three 6-team divisions.
1927 AFL
East Division: Baltimore Orioles, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Boston Yankees, New York Gothams, Philadelphia Barrels, Washington Warriors
Central Division: Buffalo Braves, Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians, Pittsburgh Ironmen
West Division: Chicago Bears, Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, St. Louis Stallions, St. Paul Saints
The first official "World Bowl" was played that year. The three division winners and the best non-division-winner would face off in Semifinal Games, after which the two victors would participate in the World Bowl to determine the league champion. The World Bowl quickly became very popular; today it has become a de facto holiday across North America.
Meanwhile, the CSA had its own football league, played with CS rules (e.g., no forward passing) and with its own postseason championship game, the Confederate Bowl. The Confederate Football League lasted from 1923 to 1942, when the demands and destruction of war shuttered stadiums all over the country.
1941 CFL
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Birmingham Barons, Charleston Patriots, Norfolk Destroyers, Richmond Colts, Savannah Seahawks
West Division: Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, Nashville Volunteers, New Orleans Tigers, San Antonio Alamos
The Depression had hit both leagues hard, forcing several franchises to suspend operations. The Second Great War didn't help either. But, as President Smith ordered, the game went on in the US. The Confederate invasion of Ohio and Pennsylvania overran the homes of three AFL teams and placed other stadiums within enemy crosshairs. Undaunted, these teams merely shifted operations to the north, appropriating minor league fields in upstate New York, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Iowa. For instance, the Phil-Pitt Barrelmen actually played in Syracuse, since Pittsburgh had been occupied and Philadelphia's stadium wrecked by CS bombers.
With their rosters depleted, the remaining AFL clubs temporarily merged with one another in order to stay afloat. Physically handicapped players were a common sight on the field. Teams were so desperate for able bodies that they resorted to raiding the roster of Negro League teams. The first black AFL player, Jim Robinson, took the field for the merged New York/Brooklyn team in 1943, and went on to have a Hall of Fame career as a receiver for the Bulldogs.
1943 AFL
East Division: Baltimore/Washington (Rochester), Boston/Buffalo (Boston), New York/Brooklyn (Albany), Philadelphia/Pittsburgh (Syracuse)
West Division: Chicago/Chicago, Detroit/Cleveland (Green Bay), Indianapolis/Cincinnati (Madison), Kansas City/St. Louis (Des Moines), Milwaukee, St. Paul
By 1946, the 18 pre-Depression teams were back in play, most with brand new stadiums rising from the rubble. The West Coast Football League proved an increasingly tough competitor for talent during the '50s.
1952 WCFL: Hollywood Stars, Los Angeles Dons, Oakland Oaks, Portland Columbias (which had briefly renamed themselves the Wolves during the SGW), Sacramento Senators, San Diego Marines, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks
Ultimately, the WCFL lost out to the established league. The AFL absorbed the WCFL in 1961, folding two of its franchises in the process, and realigned into 3 conferences: the Pacific (comprising the former West Coast teams), the Central, and the Atlantic. The number of teams receiving postseason spots was raised from 4 to 8.
1961 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Buffalo Braves, New York Gothams
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Philadelphia Barrels, Pittsburgh Ironmen, Washington Warriors
Central Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints (moved to Minneapolis from St. Paul in 1957), St. Louis Stallions
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks
South Division: Denver Bears (from Chicago in 1953), Los Angeles Angels (from KC Cowboys in 1961), Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines
Many teams from the old Confederate Football League were reincarnated in the Southern Football League, a minor league which formed in 1954 with clubs in both the US and Texas. Naturally, the league played by US rules, as the old Confederate style had fallen out of favor (and was insufficiently patriotic). The first AFL team from the former CSA, the Habana Hurricanes, had joined in 1969 (along with a new Kansas City Cowboys franchise). The SFL became so popular in the former CSA that the AFL eventually absorbed it in 1984. It became the fourth AFL conference (the Central Conference was renamed the Northern Conference at this time). The number of teams qualifying for the playoffs was upped to 12 that year.
The Canadian Football Association formed in 1958 and consisted of teams in the ex-Canadian provinces and in Quebec. Like the CFL, the CFA also played by American rules. It too was considered a minor league, not on the same level of competition as the AFL. But in 1977, the Toronto Maple Leafs and Vancouver Cougars were deemed worthy and "promoted" to the AFL as expansion teams.
1958-76 CFA
East Division: Montreal Royals, Ottawa Senators, Quebec Capitals, Toronto Maple Leafs
West Division: Calgary Cannons, Edmonton Eskimos, Vancouver Cougars, Winnipeg Wolves
1984 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Buffalo Braves, New York Gothams, Toronto Maple Leafs
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Philadelphia Barrels, Pittsburgh Ironmen, Washington Warriors
Northern Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints, St. Louis Stallions
Southern Conference
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Birmingham Barons, Habana Hurricanes, Miami Seahawks (from Savannah in 1966), Richmond Colts
West Division: Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, New Orleans Tigers
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks, Vancouver Cougars
South Division: Denver Bears, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines
The most recent round of expansion occurred in 2001, when 4 new teams were added, bringing the total number of teams up to its current 40. The postseason was also expanded that year to 16 teams.
2001 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Buffalo Braves, Montreal Royals, Ottawa Ospreys, Toronto Maple Leafs
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Brooklyn Bulldogs, New York Gothams, Philadelphia Barrels, Washington Warriors
Northern Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians, Pittsburgh Ironmen
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints, St. Louis Stallions
Southern Conference
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Charlotte Hornets, Habana Hurricanes, Miami Seahawks, Richmond Colts
West Division: Birmingham Barons, Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, New Orleans Tigers
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks, Vancouver Cougars
South Division: Denver Bears, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines, Tucson Sidewinders
How's this, David? Note that 2009, the year in which you intend to end this TL, is the 100th anniversary of the AFL....
1927 AFL
East Division: Baltimore Orioles, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Boston Yankees, New York Gothams, Philadelphia Barrels, Washington Warriors
Central Division: Buffalo Braves, Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians, Pittsburgh Ironmen
West Division: Chicago Bears, Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, St. Louis Stallions, St. Paul Saints
The first official "World Bowl" was played that year. The three division winners and the best non-division-winner would face off in Semifinal Games, after which the two victors would participate in the World Bowl to determine the league champion. The World Bowl quickly became very popular; today it has become a de facto holiday across North America.
Meanwhile, the CSA had its own football league, played with CS rules (e.g., no forward passing) and with its own postseason championship game, the Confederate Bowl. The Confederate Football League lasted from 1923 to 1942, when the demands and destruction of war shuttered stadiums all over the country.
1941 CFL
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Birmingham Barons, Charleston Patriots, Norfolk Destroyers, Richmond Colts, Savannah Seahawks
West Division: Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, Nashville Volunteers, New Orleans Tigers, San Antonio Alamos
The Depression had hit both leagues hard, forcing several franchises to suspend operations. The Second Great War didn't help either. But, as President Smith ordered, the game went on in the US. The Confederate invasion of Ohio and Pennsylvania overran the homes of three AFL teams and placed other stadiums within enemy crosshairs. Undaunted, these teams merely shifted operations to the north, appropriating minor league fields in upstate New York, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Iowa. For instance, the Phil-Pitt Barrelmen actually played in Syracuse, since Pittsburgh had been occupied and Philadelphia's stadium wrecked by CS bombers.
With their rosters depleted, the remaining AFL clubs temporarily merged with one another in order to stay afloat. Physically handicapped players were a common sight on the field. Teams were so desperate for able bodies that they resorted to raiding the roster of Negro League teams. The first black AFL player, Jim Robinson, took the field for the merged New York/Brooklyn team in 1943, and went on to have a Hall of Fame career as a receiver for the Bulldogs.
1943 AFL
East Division: Baltimore/Washington (Rochester), Boston/Buffalo (Boston), New York/Brooklyn (Albany), Philadelphia/Pittsburgh (Syracuse)
West Division: Chicago/Chicago, Detroit/Cleveland (Green Bay), Indianapolis/Cincinnati (Madison), Kansas City/St. Louis (Des Moines), Milwaukee, St. Paul
By 1946, the 18 pre-Depression teams were back in play, most with brand new stadiums rising from the rubble. The West Coast Football League proved an increasingly tough competitor for talent during the '50s.
1952 WCFL: Hollywood Stars, Los Angeles Dons, Oakland Oaks, Portland Columbias (which had briefly renamed themselves the Wolves during the SGW), Sacramento Senators, San Diego Marines, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks
Ultimately, the WCFL lost out to the established league. The AFL absorbed the WCFL in 1961, folding two of its franchises in the process, and realigned into 3 conferences: the Pacific (comprising the former West Coast teams), the Central, and the Atlantic. The number of teams receiving postseason spots was raised from 4 to 8.
1961 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Buffalo Braves, New York Gothams
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Philadelphia Barrels, Pittsburgh Ironmen, Washington Warriors
Central Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints (moved to Minneapolis from St. Paul in 1957), St. Louis Stallions
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks
South Division: Denver Bears (from Chicago in 1953), Los Angeles Angels (from KC Cowboys in 1961), Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines
Many teams from the old Confederate Football League were reincarnated in the Southern Football League, a minor league which formed in 1954 with clubs in both the US and Texas. Naturally, the league played by US rules, as the old Confederate style had fallen out of favor (and was insufficiently patriotic). The first AFL team from the former CSA, the Habana Hurricanes, had joined in 1969 (along with a new Kansas City Cowboys franchise). The SFL became so popular in the former CSA that the AFL eventually absorbed it in 1984. It became the fourth AFL conference (the Central Conference was renamed the Northern Conference at this time). The number of teams qualifying for the playoffs was upped to 12 that year.
The Canadian Football Association formed in 1958 and consisted of teams in the ex-Canadian provinces and in Quebec. Like the CFL, the CFA also played by American rules. It too was considered a minor league, not on the same level of competition as the AFL. But in 1977, the Toronto Maple Leafs and Vancouver Cougars were deemed worthy and "promoted" to the AFL as expansion teams.
1958-76 CFA
East Division: Montreal Royals, Ottawa Senators, Quebec Capitals, Toronto Maple Leafs
West Division: Calgary Cannons, Edmonton Eskimos, Vancouver Cougars, Winnipeg Wolves
1984 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Buffalo Braves, New York Gothams, Toronto Maple Leafs
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Philadelphia Barrels, Pittsburgh Ironmen, Washington Warriors
Northern Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints, St. Louis Stallions
Southern Conference
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Birmingham Barons, Habana Hurricanes, Miami Seahawks (from Savannah in 1966), Richmond Colts
West Division: Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, New Orleans Tigers
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks, Vancouver Cougars
South Division: Denver Bears, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines
The most recent round of expansion occurred in 2001, when 4 new teams were added, bringing the total number of teams up to its current 40. The postseason was also expanded that year to 16 teams.
2001 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Buffalo Braves, Montreal Royals, Ottawa Ospreys, Toronto Maple Leafs
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Brooklyn Bulldogs, New York Gothams, Philadelphia Barrels, Washington Warriors
Northern Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians, Pittsburgh Ironmen
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints, St. Louis Stallions
Southern Conference
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Charlotte Hornets, Habana Hurricanes, Miami Seahawks, Richmond Colts
West Division: Birmingham Barons, Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, New Orleans Tigers
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks, Vancouver Cougars
South Division: Denver Bears, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines, Tucson Sidewinders
How's this, David? Note that 2009, the year in which you intend to end this TL, is the 100th anniversary of the AFL....
Last edited:
Thanks for the promotion to canon.
I'd say fictional. If I remember correctly, Eagle Airways is a joint Austro-Hungarian/German/US conglomerate, based in New York City.
The dominance of the center-left in both France and the UK was eventually ended by both factionalism within both respective blocs and voter dissatisfaction at perceived government corruption in both nations.
The long period in power generally produced moderates in both nations.
OTL Belgium is a part of the German Empire in TTL.
It's doubtful that such a trip was planned in TTL (due to butterflies), but if it was, it's unlikely that the Irish government would have allowed him in.
The American Football League began play in 1909 and was the first professional football circuit.
SNIP
How's this, David? Note that 2009, the year in which you intend to end this TL, is the 100th anniversary of the AFL....
Excellent write-up! Thank you very much! I appreciate having some of the gaps of TTL filled. It's all canon for this world.
What with the fact that many of the railway enthusiasts who travelled to Ireland to photograph the T&D (and similar routes) were British, I imagine that there are very few records of Ireland's narrow gauge railways ITTL.
Which brings me to wonder as to what Rail Transport is like ITTL. Does Amtrak exist? Did the Beeching Axe ever fall in Britain? Which nation(s) built the fastest train?
Some things like the space chase seem to be happening about a decade behind OTL, but this can be due to the fact that wars have prevented governments from being able to pot resources into it. However if you look at the "combine technology" parts of the updates (combine being computing in OTL) it seems to also be lagging a bit behind OTL. The internet (combonet here) did not appear till the 90s and a single computer still dominates the market. So there is no proliferation. I reckon that the fact that TTL's governments having more control of the economy and development have perhaps slowed down, not the development of tech, but the adoption of it by the population.
Hey guys. I made electoral maps for 1948 and 1952, which David says is canon. I'm posting them here.
1948
Thomas Dewey (D-NY)/Harry S. Truman (D-MO): 281 EV
Henry A. Wallace (S-IA)/Rexford Tugwell (S-NY): 105 EV
Harold Stassen (R-MN)/Smith Altrock (R-CA): 11 EV
1952
Harry S. Truman (D-MO)/Irving Morrell (D-KS): 224 EV
Adlai Stevenson II (S-IL)/Earl Warren (S-CA): 167 EV
Harold Stassen (R-MN)/Cecil Schneider II (R-IL): 17 EV
1948
Thomas Dewey (D-NY)/Harry S. Truman (D-MO): 281 EV
Henry A. Wallace (S-IA)/Rexford Tugwell (S-NY): 105 EV
Harold Stassen (R-MN)/Smith Altrock (R-CA): 11 EV
1952
Harry S. Truman (D-MO)/Irving Morrell (D-KS): 224 EV
Adlai Stevenson II (S-IL)/Earl Warren (S-CA): 167 EV
Harold Stassen (R-MN)/Cecil Schneider II (R-IL): 17 EV
Hey guys. I made electoral maps for 1948 and 1952, which David says is canon. I'm posting them here.
1948
Thomas Dewey (D-NY)/Harry S. Truman (D-MO): 281 EV
Henry A. Wallace (S-IA)/Rexford Tugwell (S-NY): 105 EV
Harold Stassen (R-MN)/Smith Altrock (R-CA): 11 EV
1952
Harry S. Truman (D-MO)/Irving Morrell (D-KS): 224 EV
Adlai Stevenson II (S-IL)/Earl Warren (S-CA): 167 EV
Harold Stassen (R-MN)/Cecil Schneider II (R-IL): 17 EV
Are those VP candidates confirmed canon by David too? Morrell as Truman's VP is very interesting. Warren as a Socialist seems rather odd.
Rexford Tugwell appears to be a real person, but am I correct in assuming that Altrock and Schneider are made up? Just curious, who made them up, you or David?
Yep. They're canon. Morrell's why Truman won two terms. Don't ask me, ask David.
Both by David. Californian Representative Smith Altrock's a hawkish Republican, descended from TL-191 character and veteran of the Great War, Private Altrock.
The Mayor of Evanston, Carl Schneider II, is the son (I assume) of Carl Schneider, a veteran of the First Great War.
OK, thanks. I'll update my candidate list.
Also, glad to hear Morrell didn't die of radiation poisoning.
I come back with some genuine questions:
1. How anglicized in terms of language is Cuba, the former Mexican northwest, and the former French West Indies?
2. Related to the above question - how much of a 'common American' culture has settled in? Language, sure, but also law, ethnicity (WASPs compared to ethnic whites, blacks, hispanics and Pacific Islanders, I suppose), food, music, cultural ways, etc. I suspect *Canada has Americanized rather nicely if we've gotten President Reynolds in office, and I can see the Pacific states as OTL Hawaii writ large - but what of the Caribbean and especially CSA?
I should perhaps have waited till the end of the 2000s to ask these so we have an extra ten years' worth to see how demographics plays out, unless you don't mind spoiling such statistics slightly ahead of time.
1. How anglicized in terms of language is Cuba, the former Mexican northwest, and the former French West Indies?
2. Related to the above question - how much of a 'common American' culture has settled in? Language, sure, but also law, ethnicity (WASPs compared to ethnic whites, blacks, hispanics and Pacific Islanders, I suppose), food, music, cultural ways, etc. I suspect *Canada has Americanized rather nicely if we've gotten President Reynolds in office, and I can see the Pacific states as OTL Hawaii writ large - but what of the Caribbean and especially CSA?
I should perhaps have waited till the end of the 2000s to ask these so we have an extra ten years' worth to see how demographics plays out, unless you don't mind spoiling such statistics slightly ahead of time.