Excellent work, David! Got a question about the U.S. nuclear force, though: is it the same as OTL? That is, SAC controls the ICBMs and bombers, while the Navy has the missile subs? Though a big difference would be that there's not as many tactical weapons as there was OTL, correct?
TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
Excellent update, David! This is quite the engrossing thread to follow on this forum, among many such threads, I might add!
One possible thing you might want to include in the next update would be the deaths of certain people whose passing would mark the "End of an Era" as it were.
I am thinking specifically that you would want to mention the death of the last US veteran and the last Confederate veteran from the Great War.
In OTL, the last American veteran of WWI died just a couple years ago, if memory serves.
Next, would be a mention of the deaths of the last US veteran and the last Confederate veteran of the Second Great War, perhaps at the same time as you mention the deaths of the vets from the Great War, similar to the mention of the mammoth cloning being later on in the century.
(in other words, when you mention "'Joe Blow' died in 2008, the last US veteran, etc." you can also say that the last vets from the SGW would die in 2036 or 2029 or whatever)
And finally, on a similar vein, mention the death of the last survivor of the Confederate Holocaust would help to wrap up the timeline quite nicely.
Because once those people are gone, there would be no living link back to that time and those days, which is why Cassius Madison would have made sure to record their stories to remember what happened.
One possible thing you might want to include in the next update would be the deaths of certain people whose passing would mark the "End of an Era" as it were.
I am thinking specifically that you would want to mention the death of the last US veteran and the last Confederate veteran from the Great War.
In OTL, the last American veteran of WWI died just a couple years ago, if memory serves.
Next, would be a mention of the deaths of the last US veteran and the last Confederate veteran of the Second Great War, perhaps at the same time as you mention the deaths of the vets from the Great War, similar to the mention of the mammoth cloning being later on in the century.
(in other words, when you mention "'Joe Blow' died in 2008, the last US veteran, etc." you can also say that the last vets from the SGW would die in 2036 or 2029 or whatever)
And finally, on a similar vein, mention the death of the last survivor of the Confederate Holocaust would help to wrap up the timeline quite nicely.
Because once those people are gone, there would be no living link back to that time and those days, which is why Cassius Madison would have made sure to record their stories to remember what happened.
Yup (although TTL's equivalent of SAC has a different name). The total US nuclear arsenal is smaller than in our world's, and has gone down in size since the end of the Fourth Pacific War.
I'm glad you've like it so far. However, I think that 2009 is a good place to conclude things.
Thanks!
Thanks for the suggestions. They will be considered for the final update.
I have questions for you. Well, one BIG question...
How are the presidents from Washington to Lincoln remembered?
And from Lincoln to Enos? (Gutierrez's still in office...). (Only tell those that are canon.)
How are the presidents from Washington to Lincoln remembered?
And from Lincoln to Enos? (Gutierrez's still in office...). (Only tell those that are canon.)
Here's what I've got so far for presidential and VP candidates. Most of the running mates haven't been mentioned.
1948: Thomas Dewey (D-NY)/Harry Truman (D-MO) def. Harold Stassen (R-MN)/? (R-?), Henry Wallace (S-IA)/? (S-?)
1952: Harry Truman (D-MO)/? (D-?) def. Harold Stassen (R-MN)/? (R-?), Adlai Stevenson II (S-IL)/? (S-?)
1956: Harry Truman (D-MO)/? (D-?) def. Harold Stassen (R-MN)/? (R-?), William Averell Harriman (S-NY)/? (S-?)
1960: Hubert Humphrey (S-MN)/Warren Magnuson (S-WA) def. John W. Bricker (D-OH)/? (D-?), Harold Stassen (R-MN)/? (R-?)
1964: Hubert Humphrey (S-MN)/Warren Magnuson (S-WA) def. Henry Cabot Lodge (D-MA)/? (D-?), Walter Judd (R-MN)/? (R-?)
1968: Hubert Humphrey (S-MN)/Warren Magnuson (S-WA) def. James Rhodes (D-OH)/? (D-?), Bryson Briggs^ (R-NE)/? (R-?)
1972: Joshua Blackford* (D-NY)/James Rhodes (D-OH) def. Philip Ioannidis^ (R-NV)/? (R-?), Terrance Hobson^ (S-CA)/? (S-?)
1976: Joshua Blackford* (D-NY)/James Rhodes (D-OH) def. George Sidney^ (R-IA)/? (R-?), Dwight O'Hare^ (S-NY)/Carl Martin* (S-CA)
1980: Morgan Reynolds^ (R-BC)/John S. Smith^ (R-?) def. Mildred Morrell-Quigley* (D-KS)/? (D-?), Theodore Abner Abell^ (S-?)/? (S-?)
1984: Morgan Reynolds^ (R-BC)/John S. Smith^ (R-?) def. Porter Schmitt^ (D-IL)/? (D-?), Robert Bronowski^ (S-PA)/? (S-?)
1988: Leo Enos* (S-MA)/Alfred Turnbull^ (S-ON) def. Archibald Young^ (D-MN)/? (D-?), John S. Smith^ (R-?)/? (R-?)
1992: Thurston DeFrancis^ (D-CA)/? (D-?) def. Patrick Gutierrez^ (R-NM)/? (R-?), Alfred Turnbull^ (S-ON)/? (S-?)
1996: Patrick Gutierrez^ (R-NM)/? (R-?) def. Thurston DeFrancis^ (D-CA)/? (D-?), Jonathan Wyden^ (S-MN)/? (S-?)
2000: TBA
2004: TBA
2008: TBA
* = Fictional character (HT)
^ = Fictional character (DBE)
~~~~~~
I assumed any non-canon character who I couldn't find a Wikipedia page for was made up by you, David. (Are they friends of yours?
) I found a George Sidney, but I don't think he's the one you were thinking of.
1948: Thomas Dewey (D-NY)/Harry Truman (D-MO) def. Harold Stassen (R-MN)/? (R-?), Henry Wallace (S-IA)/? (S-?)
1952: Harry Truman (D-MO)/? (D-?) def. Harold Stassen (R-MN)/? (R-?), Adlai Stevenson II (S-IL)/? (S-?)
1956: Harry Truman (D-MO)/? (D-?) def. Harold Stassen (R-MN)/? (R-?), William Averell Harriman (S-NY)/? (S-?)
1960: Hubert Humphrey (S-MN)/Warren Magnuson (S-WA) def. John W. Bricker (D-OH)/? (D-?), Harold Stassen (R-MN)/? (R-?)
1964: Hubert Humphrey (S-MN)/Warren Magnuson (S-WA) def. Henry Cabot Lodge (D-MA)/? (D-?), Walter Judd (R-MN)/? (R-?)
1968: Hubert Humphrey (S-MN)/Warren Magnuson (S-WA) def. James Rhodes (D-OH)/? (D-?), Bryson Briggs^ (R-NE)/? (R-?)
1972: Joshua Blackford* (D-NY)/James Rhodes (D-OH) def. Philip Ioannidis^ (R-NV)/? (R-?), Terrance Hobson^ (S-CA)/? (S-?)
1976: Joshua Blackford* (D-NY)/James Rhodes (D-OH) def. George Sidney^ (R-IA)/? (R-?), Dwight O'Hare^ (S-NY)/Carl Martin* (S-CA)
1980: Morgan Reynolds^ (R-BC)/John S. Smith^ (R-?) def. Mildred Morrell-Quigley* (D-KS)/? (D-?), Theodore Abner Abell^ (S-?)/? (S-?)
1984: Morgan Reynolds^ (R-BC)/John S. Smith^ (R-?) def. Porter Schmitt^ (D-IL)/? (D-?), Robert Bronowski^ (S-PA)/? (S-?)
1988: Leo Enos* (S-MA)/Alfred Turnbull^ (S-ON) def. Archibald Young^ (D-MN)/? (D-?), John S. Smith^ (R-?)/? (R-?)
1992: Thurston DeFrancis^ (D-CA)/? (D-?) def. Patrick Gutierrez^ (R-NM)/? (R-?), Alfred Turnbull^ (S-ON)/? (S-?)
1996: Patrick Gutierrez^ (R-NM)/? (R-?) def. Thurston DeFrancis^ (D-CA)/? (D-?), Jonathan Wyden^ (S-MN)/? (S-?)
2000: TBA
2004: TBA
2008: TBA
* = Fictional character (HT)
^ = Fictional character (DBE)
~~~~~~
I assumed any non-canon character who I couldn't find a Wikipedia page for was made up by you, David. (Are they friends of yours?
) I found a George Sidney, but I don't think he's the one you were thinking of.
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By the way, why do you, when the Dems win, put the Republican candidate second? It would work better to put the Socialist candidate second.Here's what I've got so far for presidential and VP candidates. Most of the running mates haven't been mentioned.
I'm not sure if you meant to spell Wyden's name Jonathon or Jonathan. I assumed any non-canon candidate who I couldn't find a Wikipedia page for was made up by you, David. (Are they friends of yours?
Democratic, Republican, Socialist. Alphabetical order. There's always a method to the madness. Well, usually, anyway.
I put them in the order of likely popular vote. So 1996 would be Guiterrez (Republican), Wyden (Socialist) and then DeFrancis (Democratic)
Washington and Jefferson are highly regarded as symbols of national unity. John Adams is more favorably viewed than in our world (as is Alexander Hamilton).
The presidents of the 1850s (Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, and James Buchanan), are regarded even worse than in our world, and are widely blamed for the disastrous outcome of the War of Secession.
As of 2000 in TTL, Abraham Lincoln has largely been rehabilitated in the eyes of most Americans: if he didn't succeed in winning the war, it was because of circumstances beyond his control.
The Democrats who held office between Lincoln and Blaine are unfavorably thought of for not strengthening the US military to meet the threat of international encirclement. James Blaine, if he's blamed for anything, is for taking the US to war in 1881 before it was ready. Most presidents are regarded favorably, or at least neutrally by the public at large. Al Smith is still castigated for his appeasement policies towards Featherston though.
I'm not sure if you meant to spell Wyden's name Jonathon or Jonathan. I assumed any non-canon candidate who I couldn't find a Wikipedia page for was made up by you, David. (Are they friends of yours?
Wyden and DeFrancis are both descendants of TL-191 characters.
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Interesting... Burr is still viewed badly?
Poor Buchanan...
But at least Fillmore and Pierce are viewed worse...Bit of a strange hero. More like a tragic hero.
Dems. Good!
Blaine. So, generally someone who screwed up, but meant well?
Smith. Of course.
What about the others? Roosevelt, Sinclair, Blackford, Hoover?
And what about the ones in After the End?
Even worse than in our world.
Lincoln has his own memorial in Washington (constructed during the Humphrey Administration).
Theodore Roosevelt is perhaps the most popular out of all of the former US presidents. Upton Sinclair. Blackford and Hoover are less well regarded, due to the Business Collapse.
Dewey and Truman are both remembered favorably for successfully rebuilding the damage caused by the Second Great War. Humphrey is well-liked both by historians and the public (even if some think he overstepped his bounds by running for a third term), as is Blackford and Reynolds. Most view Enos as being in over his head when it came to dealing with the Tech Recession, while DeFrancis is disliked for the perceived corruption and incompetence in his administration.
And what about President Charles W. La Follette, the American Churchill? Plus, what's his middle name? Winston?
And how is President Guiterrez likely to be remembered?
Yes, I recognized the DeFrancis name, but I had to look up Wyden. So is it Jonathon, or was that a typo? I've seen the name spelled both ways.
Also, any question marks you can fill in would be much appreciated.
It should be "Jonathan." My apologies.
Also, any question marks you can fill in would be much appreciated.
Perhaps by PM later. I'm going to be very busy in the near future.
No need for apology. Forgive my nitpicking.
Perhaps by PM later. I'm going to be very busy in the near future.
Whenever you have time -- no obligation or anything, of course.
OneYearCaligula
Banned
Wow. I just got done finishing reading all the posts of this timeline and i must say bravo, you've done a good job at this.
Interesting to read about the cultural image of the POTUSes. Given what you've revealed, Lincoln would probably be seen as a borderline national martyr by most of US society during the 1990s.
I have a few questions regarding politics in this TL as well :
1. How is Austria-Hungary organized ? I am certain that it is a constitutional monarchy since at least the interwar period. But is it now (1990s) a federal monarchy, with its nationalities having their own member states in both halves of the monarchy ? How are these potential MS represented, how does voting and everyday politics go in practice ? What are some of the political parties and factions of the monarchy ? Is the royal family liked, are they proactive in charity, etc. ? And, of course : Is Austria-Hungary politically stable beyond a surface assessment, averting the fate of the currently balkanizing Ottoman Empire ?
2. More or less the same questions about internal German politics, though I'm not awaiting an answer as detailed as with Austria-Hungary.
3. Isn't the sheer size of the US ITTL going to cause various political and societal problems later on ? The US has become a continent-spanning meganation (or, rather, like a huge collection of nations) - won't this cause some culture clashes later in the 21st century ? (I.e. Canadians and Caribbeans feeling "under the yoke of the Union's culture, which is erasing their own".)
4. Does the post-SGW TL 191 world have a popular craze for urban legends or conspiracy theories postulating that the Featherston regime had links to super-advanced tech or occult magic powers, analogous to the mythicizing treatment the Nazis received in the decades after WWII ? I'm really curious about this.
I have a few questions regarding politics in this TL as well :
1. How is Austria-Hungary organized ? I am certain that it is a constitutional monarchy since at least the interwar period. But is it now (1990s) a federal monarchy, with its nationalities having their own member states in both halves of the monarchy ? How are these potential MS represented, how does voting and everyday politics go in practice ? What are some of the political parties and factions of the monarchy ? Is the royal family liked, are they proactive in charity, etc. ? And, of course : Is Austria-Hungary politically stable beyond a surface assessment, averting the fate of the currently balkanizing Ottoman Empire ?
2. More or less the same questions about internal German politics, though I'm not awaiting an answer as detailed as with Austria-Hungary.
3. Isn't the sheer size of the US ITTL going to cause various political and societal problems later on ? The US has become a continent-spanning meganation (or, rather, like a huge collection of nations) - won't this cause some culture clashes later in the 21st century ? (I.e. Canadians and Caribbeans feeling "under the yoke of the Union's culture, which is erasing their own".)
4. Does the post-SGW TL 191 world have a popular craze for urban legends or conspiracy theories postulating that the Featherston regime had links to super-advanced tech or occult magic powers, analogous to the mythicizing treatment the Nazis received in the decades after WWII ? I'm really curious about this.
4. Does the post-SGW TL 191 world have a popular craze for urban legends or conspiracy theories postulating that the Featherston regime had links to super-advanced tech or occult magic powers, analogous to the mythicizing treatment the Nazis received in the decades after WWII ? I'm really curious about this.
I'd be too - it certainly FEELS like it would exist, considering he was the first to actually use a nuke, much less managing to make one in the first place (and even in-universe, I'm sure historians and the public both would be amazed he managed to almost pull one out of his ass).