WI The Columbian Expedition was a complete failure?

Yelnoc

There was some really interesting discussion in the days after I tuned out of this project. Codae, you're entries are great.

I am thinking about putting together a simplistic overview of what we have so far, that way we can see what areas need more exploration. For now though, this bump will do.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

BootOnFace said:
The potato didn't become a staple until the late 18th century, with major encouragement from the state following famines.

EDIT: Apparently they were common in North Italy by 1600, due to the fact they weren't easily pillaged.
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Actually by the end of the 30 years war in the germanies, potatoes were used quite a bit. Potaoes could be left in the ground, where marauding soldiers couldnt still them, unlike a granary full of grain or a barn with animals.
 

Yelnoc

Here is that index I promised last October. Sorry about disappearing; my computer died. What is and isn't a "substantial post" is obviously subjective, and I'm sure I missed a lot, but I wanted links to some of the big posts in one place so that I (we) won't have to search through the thread so much.


Timeline Index
1. Spanish and Portuguese Exploration (1503-1513) - Hnau
2. European Wars (1494-1515) - Hnau
3. Balboa and the Cofitachequi (1507-?) - Yelnoc
4. Spanish and Portuguese Exploration (1512-16) - Hnau and the map
5. The Vain Campaign (1511-1512) - Codae
6. First Swabian War (1499) - Codae
7. Death of a Bishop, or, Butterflies on the Danube (1498-1506) - Codae

Substantial Discussion Posts
WI The Columbian Expedition was a complete failure? - Hnau (OP)
OTL Explorers in 1503- Hnau
Effect of diseases on Native populations - BlondieBC
Map of pre-Columbian North America - Codae
Effect of tobacco on natives in Virginia (article) - Hnau
Hnau pulls some ideas together - Hnau
French Pirates - lokaloki
Discussion of some global butterflies - Danbensen
Effects on East Asia and more - Hnau
Portuguese exploration of the Yucatan - 9 Fanged Hummingbird
Spanish succession - Codae
 
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Yelnoc

And here is the map I made, the link to which is no longer working in that first page.

confitachequi.png


So, anybody else want to return to this?
 

Yelnoc

Below is a timeline of events taken from the "Timeline Index" posts, which I'm considering as cannon, along with events which have been grandfathered in by the POD or allowed to happen as OTL. Italicized events are either things discussed in those posts or elsewhere in the thread that didn't have dates attached, OTL events that I'm inserting into the time line to spark discussion, or my own questions and commentary. So scrutinize italicized items closely.

1492
6 September: Christopher Columbus departs from the Canary Islands with the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.
12 October: A sailor aboard Pinta sights land.
25 December: The Santa Maria runs aground on the northern coast of *Hispaniola. Here, with the permission of the native cacique people, he left 39 men to found the settlement of La Navidad.

1493
 15 January: Columbus sets sail for Spain.
14 February: On the return journey of the Pinta and Nina the ships are lost in a mid-Atlantic hurricane. There are no survivors.

1494
October: Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan, permits Charles VIII, King of France, to march his army through Milan to attack Naples, an enemy of his to which Charles VIII has a tenuous claim.
After October: Gran maestro Piero di Medici of Florence is exiled by Florentines from his poor handling of the French invasion. The Florentines then reform the city as a Republic.

1495
February: Charles VIII captures Naples.
31 March: The Holy League is founded to expel the French from Italy. Its members are Pope Alexander VI, Duke Ludovico, King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Sicily, and Emperor Maximilian I.
20 May: The Holy League's harassment of French supply lines incites Charles VIII to depart Naples with his loot, leaving behind Count Gilbert of Montpensier as Viceroy with some troops.
6 July: The Battle of Fornovo is a decisive French victory. Charles VIII is able to return to France with most of his army in tact and a sizeable amount of loot from the rich Italian states, which are now clearly weakened.
1496
Date Unknown: The French garrison in Naples falls to Aragonese troops. King Ferdinand II places his son on the Neopolitan throne.

1497
Date Unknown: Charles VIII formulates an alliance with the Swiss and Venetians. He then launches an invasion of Milan and places Louis II, Duke of Orleans, on the throne of Milan.
1500
15 February: Pedro Alvares Cabral is appointed Commander of a fleet sailing for India.
9 March: Cabral's fleet departs from Lisbon.
22 April: Cabral's fleet lands in *Brazil near what he christens Monte Pascoal.
25 April: The entire fleet sails into the natural harbor of Porto Seguro.
1 May: A giant wooden cross is built inland, under which the first Christian Mass in the New World is held. Cabral names this land, which he believes to be an island, Ilha de Vera Cruz, or "Island of the True Cross."
 2 May: Nicolau Coelhois sent back to Lisbon by Cabral to tell the King of Portugal of this newly discovered land. Cabral, meanwhile, directs the rest of the fleet south to follow the coast of *Brazil, which convinces him he has discovered a new continent, rather than an island.
5 May: Cabral's fleet veers eastwards towards Africa to continue with the original voyage. Do we think Cabral would still have done this, considering he thinks he's discovered a new land where everyone thought only water was?

1501
10 May: Coelho sets sail from Lisbon as Captain-General of three caravels, with King's orders to explore Ilha de Vera Cruz.
22 May: The Portuguese expedition, commanded by Coelho encounters Cabral's much-reduced fleet in Beseguicheon their way back to Ilha de Vera Cruz.
21 July: Cabral returns to Portugal with five of his seven ships loaded with unimaginable wealth.
17 August: Coelho makes landfall off the *Brazilian coast.
Date Unknown: After four years of continues warfare in Italy between France and Spain, the two power sign a peace treaty, recognizing French control of Milan and Spanish control of Naples.

1502
1 January: Coelho discovers Guanabara Bay, naming it Rio de Janeiro.
13 February: Coelho breaks off his exloration of the coast of *Sao Paulo and sets sail for Portugal.
7 September: Coelho's expedition returns to Portugal. He validates Cabral's theory that he discovered an entirely new continent and also reports an abundance of the valuable brazilwood.
28 September: King Manuel of Portugal issues Fernao de Loronha, a wealthy Portuguese banker, a charter granting him exclusive commercial rights to La Terra de Vera Cruz for three years. In return, Loronha is obligated to outfit six ships a year to explore at least 300 leagues of coast a year, and build a fort.
1503
March: King Manuel commissions the brothers Miguel and Gaspar Corte-Real to find a Northwest Passage to Asia. Hnau posits this would have occurred in 1501, but I don't think it would have happened until Coelho returned from his expedition, and not then not until after that winter.
10 May: Coelho sets sail again for *Brazil, this time with six ships.
10 August: Coelho's flagship strikes a reef in the middle of the Atlantic. All hands are saved. They name the island Sao Joao.
2 November: Coelho discovers the Baia de Todos os Santos in *Bahia.
November: The Corte-Real brothers return. They report a new land in the northwest. The approaching cold weather and the presence of hostile native tribes had persuaded the brothers to return instead of wintering in the new land, but they requested King Manuel fund a new voyage the following spring. Their charts map a similar route to that of OTL's Jacques Cartier.
11 December: Coelho establishes a fort and factory in Porto Seguro.
4 April: Coelho sets sail for Portugal, leaving behind 24 men at the fort to continue loading brazilwood into the factory, which was essentially a warehouse. During the expedition he had also established brazilwood factories in Cabo Frio and Rio de Janeiro, though these structures were left unmanned.
28 June: Coelho arrives in Lisbon.

1504
14 January: King Manuel grants Loronha Sao Joao island as his personal, hereditary fief. Loronha establishes a large warehouse on the island and uses it as the hub of his Brazilwood trade. Brazilwood from the coastal factories is ferried over to the island and then loaded on larger ships bound for Portugal. It is because of this trade that the region gets its name; Brazil.
March: Gaspar and Vasco Corte-Real (the latter replacing his brother Miguel, who did not sail for reasons undocumented) make the second voyage in hopes of finding a Northwest Passage.

 1505
August: The Corte-Real brothers return to Lisbon. They're charts show they took a similar route to the OTL Jacques Cartier's second voyage, travelling down the *St. Lawrence river to make contact with the *Iroquois and then being forced to winter in the river system. The brothers petition for King Manuel to fund a third voyage, which he refuses. *Would he really? In OTL, the King refused the brothers a third voyage because Vasco wanted to go find his two missing brothers. In this timeline there is more to explore, particularly if we follow my outline whereby they make contact with the Iroquois.
Date Unknown: The Spanish crown holds a conference in Barcelona, where it decided that more must be done to reach China and India after Columbus's failed voyage over a decade ago.

1506
Date Unkown: Loronha's royal charter is renewed for ten years. Under the new terms, Loronha must pay the crown 4,000 ducats a year.

1507
March: Five caravels under Captain Rodrigo de Bastidas sail to the Canary Islands and then take the trade winds due west.
May: Bastidas sights land. His ships make landfall in *Northern Florida.
June: Bastidas charts the *Sea Islands.
July: The fleet runs into some shoals off the coast of the *Carolinas. Bad whether leads to the loss of two of these ships, though some survivors make it to shore, including Vasco de Balboa and an unknown sailor carrying measles.
September: Bastidas maps the *Chesapeake Bay. A few natives agree to return with them and learn Spanish.

1508
January: Bastidas returns to Seville with a number of natives as captives.
November: Vasco Anes Corte-Real leaves Lisbon in command of four ships. His mission is to explore north of Brazil to see what else Terra de la Vera Cruz holds.
December: Bastidas leaves on his second expedition to
 Date Unknown: Loronha commisions another brazilwood factory in *Sao Vicente. Also, the War of the League of Cambrai begins, with the Papal States, Holy Roman Empire, and Spain fighting to contain Venice's power.

1509
January: Corte-Real arrives in Sao Joao, and then makes landfall on the Brazilian coast at *Pernambuco. Instead of following the coastline south to the brazilwood factories, he turns north and goes around the shoulder of Brazil.
February: Corte-Real stops at *Sao Luis island to resuppy and trade with natives. Meanwhile, Bastidas makes landfall in *Chesapeake Bay the surviving natives are returned to their tribe.
March: Corte-Real discovers the *Amazon River which he names O Rio Dulce. He sails 200 miles of it and encounters hostile natives before turning back. Meanwhile, Bastidas's party explores the Delaware and Hudson rivers.
April: Bastidas decides that there is no Northwest Passageway in this region and turns back towards Spain.
 May: After retracing his steps up O Rio Dulce and continuing westward along the Brazilian coast, Corte-Real decides to make the return voyage to Portugal.
June: Bastidas returns to Spain.
July: Corte-Real returns to Lisbon. he believes that the southern land is the same continent as the northern land he and his brothers explored and asks King Manuel to fund another voyage. However, by the time the Portuguese crown is able to fund another voyage, Corte-Real and his brothers will be too old to lead it.
Date Unkown: Loronha commisions another brazilwood factory in Baia de Todos os Santos.

1510
Date Unknown: The first phase of the War of the League of Cambrai ends without any significant shift in the balance of power. However the Pope, still hungry for more land, attacks the Duchy of Ferrara, a French ally. However, he did not receive the Venetian support he had hoped for and the French easily beat the Papal forces back.

1511
Date Unknown: French forces threaten the city of Rome. Pope Julius II proclaims a Holy League against France. Austria, Spain, England, and Venice join.

1512
February: King Charles VIII of France dies of natural causes. Louis II, Duke of Orleans and Milan, becomes King Louis XII of France.
October: Sebastian Cabot leaves Spain with three ships to map a faster northerly route to the new land.
December: Cabot sights *Newfoundland, but is pushed by a storm to *Nova Scotia.
January: Cabot discovers *Massachusetts Bay and *Nantucket.
February: Cabot arrives in *Chesapeake Bay to find their former trading partners gone. Their villages have been emptied by disease. One of Cabot's ship, in need of repairs, is left on the coast along with its crew, which establish Fort Isabella. Cabot and the rest of the expedition return to Spain.
March: Cristovao Jacques leaves Lisbon with five ships on the voyage that Vasco Corte-Real never got a chance to make.
April: Cabot returns to Spain.
May: Jacques makes landfall at the mouth of O Rio Dulce. He heads northwest, back out to sea.
June: Jacques explores the *Lesser Antilles.
July: Jacques explores *Puerto Rico and *Hispaniola
September: Jacques explores *Jamaica and makes landfall on the eastern tip of *Cuba.
October: Jacques explores *The Bahamas.
December: Jacques discovers *Bermuda.
Date Unknown: King Manuel withdraws Loronha's charter and grants it to rival merchants led by Jorge Lopes Bixorda.

1513
February: Jacques returns to Lisbon with a massive new lengths of coast charted. While Corte-Real's "Occidentia" theory is still unproven, the discovery of these new lands is vitally important to European exploration.
Date Unknown: Venice leaves the war against France.

 1515
Date Unknown: King Manuel allows Bixorda's charter to Brazil to expire. The crown takes direct control of the brazilwood trade. Also in this year, King Louis XII of France and Pope Julius II both die, prompting a peace settlement to the War of the League of Cambrai. Northern Italy is divided between France and Venice, while the power of the Papacy is significantly diminished. Francis of Angouleme becomes King Francis I of France.
 
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Hnau

Banned
Thanks for organizing all of this Yelnoc! Great work! :)

I am currently reading 1493 and have found a bunch of stuff that could have interesting ramifications in this timeline. After reading more about the Virginia Colony I have come to an even firmer conclusion that not only will the Spanish introduce massive changes to the ecology there, which will destabilize societies throughout the regain, but that it will remain a small colony for perhaps a century, likely consisting of only a fort to control piracy and to establish limited trade with the natives. There won't be any reason to invest there until the discovery of Trinidad tobacco which could take a long time.

I'm working on another timeline currently, but I hop from TL to TL quite frequently so I could be back to this soon. :)
 

Yelnoc

Hnau said:
Thanks for organizing all of this Yelnoc! Great work! :)

I am currently reading 1493 and have found a bunch of stuff that could have interesting ramifications in this timeline. After reading more about the Virginia Colony I have come to an even firmer conclusion that not only will the Spanish introduce massive changes to the ecology there, which will destabilize societies throughout the regain, but that it will remain a small colony for perhaps a century, likely consisting of only a fort to control piracy and to establish limited trade with the natives. There won't be any reason to invest there until the discovery of Trinidad tobacco which could take a long time.

I'm working on another timeline currently, but I hop from TL to TL quite frequently so I could be back to this soon. :)
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good deal. I should read 1493 at some point (or maybe finish 1491, which I never did).

Would you mind if me (and anyone else) worked on this in your absence?
 

Yelnoc

Ok, the first two entries have been included in the timeline. Someone really ought to go over those with a fine comb before I continue. Oh, and we should come up with some dates for the Italian Wars; "date unknown" is unsatisfying.
 
Beedok

Beedok

I like that this is alive again and am happy to provide maps and advice, though as always confess my lack of knowledge about the era.
 

Yelnoc

I think we should think a little more about the "Northwest Passage" voyages.

First are the Corte-Real brothers'. In OTL, there were two voyages because Gaspar went looking for Miguel, who had disappeared. Gaspar then disappeared himself, and Vasco wanted to lead a third voyage but the King forbade it. In TTL, Gaspar and Miguel both made it back safely. I assumed that they explored all around New Foundland, across the Golf of St. Lawrence to the Canadian Maritimes, and then went back. The second voyage would seem to obviously explore down the St. Lawrence River. So they follow a similar path to Jaqcues Cartier, like I mentioned in the timeline.

If that is what we want to do, does it still make sense for the Spanish crown to send Sebastien Cabot on the same mission a decade later? Or maybe they are trying to stake a claim to the area? That reminds me, I think it would be interesting for the Portuguese claim to all land south of the Canary Islands (which was enshrined in a 1481 Papal Bull) to not be usurped by a "Treaty of Tordesillas" in this timeline. So the below map would function as a division between the Portuguese southern colonies and Spanish northern colonies at the beginning of the 16th century.

Here is a rough map of that line.

aeterni_regis_zps0d9127ea.png
 

Hnau

Banned
Yelnoc said:
Would you mind if me (and anyone else) worked on this in your absence?
Click to expand...

Yeah! Sure! I just hope you don't scrap everything I've written. ;)

Yelnoc said:
That reminds me, I think it would be interesting for the Portuguese claim to all land south of the Canary Islands (which was enshrined in a 1481 Papal Bull) to not be usurped by a "Treaty of Tordesillas" in this timeline. So the below map would function as a division between the Portuguese southern colonies and Spanish northern colonies at the beginning of the 16th century.
Click to expand...

Codae said:
You drew that line at the Cape Verde Islands, not the Canaries.
Click to expand...

Other than the line being drawn at the Cape Verde islands, I thought that's what we established that the Portuguese would use the 1481 papal bull to divvy up the Americas with the Spanish. However, I believe I wrote somewhere that because the Spanish are moving on Florida and Cuba, which are slightly below that line, this could lead to some tensions with the Portuguese, leading to a formalized treaty between the two using the 1481 papal bull as precedent to specifically restrict the Spanish from colonizing anything in the Americas below that line, except for Cuba and Florida. The concession of these two areas might prompt the Spanish to take the deal, though doing so would, of course, keep the Spanish from interfering with the Aztec or Incan Empires. They wouldn't be able to go back on a formal treaty concerning the Americas until they take Portugal by force (which may or may not happen).

I can't remember if I mentioned it or not, but I really like the idea of the Portuguese focusing their attention to the north and leaving OTL southern Brazil open for French colonization of the Huguenots.
 

Yelnoc

Codae said:
You drew that line at the Cape Verde Islands, not the Canaries.
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/facepalm

It was the weirdest thing too. Every time I minimized GIMP to look up the name of the papal bull for the file name to save the map, GIMP disappeared (I'm on Linux...). So I just said fuck it, drew a line, and saved it.


Hnau said:
Yeah! Sure! I just hope you don't scrap everything I've written. ;)
Click to expand...

No worries about that, I'm mainly worried about fitting everything together.


Hnau said:
Other than the line being drawn at the Cape Verde islands, I thought that's what we established that the Portuguese would use the 1481 papal bull to divvy up the Americas with the Spanish. However, I believe I wrote somewhere that because the Spanish are moving on Florida and Cuba, which are slightly below that line, this could lead to some tensions with the Portuguese, leading to a formalized treaty between the two using the 1481 papal bull as precedent to specifically restrict the Spanish from colonizing anything in the Americas below that line, except for Cuba and Florida. The concession of these two areas might prompt the Spanish to take the deal, though doing so would, of course, keep the Spanish from interfering with the Aztec or Incan Empires. They wouldn't be able to go back on a formal treaty concerning the Americas until they take Portugal by force (which may or may not happen).
Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan.


Hnau said:
I can't remember if I mentioned it or not, but I really like the idea of the Portuguese focusing their attention to the north and leaving OTL southern Brazil open for French colonization of the Huguenots.
Click to expand...

No I don't remember that. Interesting. Though I was toying with the idea that France itself might go protestant, seeing as without Louis XII reforming things, the French state at the turn of the 16th century is going to be a lot less stable. Thoughts?
 
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