TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
What ? Should it survive until the 30th century ? Even the UK hasn't existed as long as the Ottoman Empire does in TL 191.
There just seems to be no good reason for it to suddenly up and die. While I'm sure David will give a thought out, reasoned and justifiable way for it to go it just seems to be a tired old theme of 'dusty old non-christian empires collapse'. ITTL it seems to be in far better shape than it was OTL early 20th century, so it just seems a bit out of left field for it to collapse when OTL it required three years of devastating invasion whilst already in a relatively poor state. While I'm sure you can point to any number of equivalent collapses to how David appears to be approaching this one, that it is the Ottoman Empire and not Bharat or Germany, also large multi-ethnic states, makes this choice of events feel a little... overdone.
People were taken aback in the early 90s when Yugoslavia collapsed. Same thing with the revolution in Iran in 1979. For years, people had been fed official propaganda on how everything was honkey-dorey in those two countries, and when the bad chains of events exploded, everybody thought they came out of nowhere. Because few people actually knew what the real inner situation was like.
If Russia or India had collapsed in a similar fashion ITTL, no one would comment on it. The eternal Byzantine or Ottoman darlings fall apart ? Everyone is enraged.
I'm sorry, but the Ottoman Empire was without troubles ITTL for a very long time. And even the most succesful countries have to enter dark chapters in their histories every once in a while. Even if the OE collapsed, I hope its successor states will gradually return to democracy and overthrow any authoritarian regimes they might have had in the beginning.
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As I said, I was sure you'd be able to come up with plenty of examples of where such troubles "suddenly" occurred in one country or another. I'm not disputing the plausibility. And certainly, this bored is perhaps a little too in love with the Ottoman and Roman empires, although not without some justification for the missed opportunities they represent. I would say though that it would be more interesting to see a collapse of the countries you mentioned, well at least India, if only because we don't see that in OTL.
My only "complaint" is that the Ottoman Empire suddenly coming to a collapse, and when put into context with previous updates it is sudden, is an AH trope that has been used time and time again. I'm willing to bet that David will put a more interesting spin on it that usual, but "middle east collapses into ethnic and religious violence" is, well, boring. Seeing that part of the world develop into something wholly different to OTL is much more fun, especially considering that we are all reminded every day what a mess the middle east is in.
My only "complaint" is that the Ottoman Empire suddenly coming to a collapse, and when put into context with previous updates it is sudden, is an AH trope that has been used time and time again. I'm willing to bet that David will put a more interesting spin on it that usual, but "middle east collapses into ethnic and religious violence" is, well, boring. Seeing that part of the world develop into something wholly different to OTL is much more fun, especially considering that we are all reminded every day what a mess the middle east is in.
As I said, Yugoslavia's and Iran's wild upheavals also felt (to the international media) as if they came from nowhere. Try telling someone in 1988 that the Soviet Union will cease to exist in 3 years. They'd call you absolutely nuts - everyone knew "that the USSR is here to stay for many decades or even centuries". No one payed attention to the cracks and even fewer people - the public as well as the media - understood them.
And there are far more wasted opportunities of "great countries that never were" outside of OE and RE. Korea comes to mind.
Yeah, that's kind of redundant to what we're talking about. The plausibility of this was never in question. And as for missed opportunities, you were the one who brought those states up, although in terms of "quantifying" the size of the opportunity I'd be more willing to give points to the country which would presumably be sitting on the most people. The only complaint here is that the collapse (if "dissolution" actually equates to a collapse) comes across more in line with western preconceptions than a natural progression of events, even if it remains plausible within the latter. It's a matter of story telling decisions.
I can't speak about Iran, but Yugoslavia's trouble was a long time coming. Too much history between Serbs and Croats for it not to be.
Soviet Union nothing, try telling somebody in 1988 that they were living in the last year of the Cold War. Berlin Wall's coming down, yeah right. You've been in the funky granola again, haven't you? I think at that point, most of the Warsaw Pact members' financial situations are worse than Greece's today.
Seems like I was right. Reynolds became the first Republican president in a century. So...
Republican Presidents.
1861-1865: Abraham Lincoln
1881-1885: James G. Blaine
1981-1989: Morgan Reynolds.
But the Republicans' victory were mostly dependent on Reynolds' charisma and the sloppy performance of the Dems and Socs. Will they recover Powell House in the future? Or is this an one-hit wonder?
Republican Presidents.
1861-1865: Abraham Lincoln
1881-1885: James G. Blaine
1981-1989: Morgan Reynolds.
But the Republicans' victory were mostly dependent on Reynolds' charisma and the sloppy performance of the Dems and Socs. Will they recover Powell House in the future? Or is this an one-hit wonder?
Excellent work!! A continuation of high quality writing and deep research. Very readabld and plausible!
I'm given to understand that as to 2, they were annexed by Russia a la OTL. As to 1, Hirohito was killed, and I think that the monarchy was abolished with his death. I'm not sure though.
Vexacus
Banned
OK, thanks for letting me know. Though by "annexed by Russia a la OTL" you surely mean "Stolen by Russia a la OTL"
Yes, they were annexed in 1969.
OK, thanks for letting me know. Though by "annexed by Russia a la OTL" you surely mean "Stolen by Russia a la OTL"
Oh, shut up Russophobe.
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