DBWI: Industrial Revolution in Europe

[EternalCynic]

OOC: Also doen't anyone remember my comment about the Eastern Roman Empire? It was the second one and established that the Eastern Roman empire was still alive and was in the first world.

Why has every one forgotten about it?

The Eastern Roman Empire only recently became wealthy as a "tiger", and still its entire economic and political elite were educated in the Caliphate or in Persia. So they're not entirely considered Christian by the Dar al-Islam.

 

[Derekc2]

The Eastern Roman Empire only recently became wealthy as a "tiger", and still its entire economic and political elite were educated in the Caliphate or in Persia. So they're not entirely considered Christian by the Dar al-Islam.

IC: Makes sence, I'm expected to go to one of those university's when I'm old enough. Though we are very much christian.

 

[lloyd007]

Just one thing Catholicism and Calvinism =/= Christianity as E. Rome and Christians outside of Europe clearly demonstrate.

Honestly though, Europe could have been ripe for industrialization if the Eastern powers had been weakened or fallen during their formative years. The Caliphate wouldn't exist if Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib hadn't dodged several knives, as it was the Shia 'schism' ran pretty deep and I shudder to think how bad it would have been if Ali had been a martyr rather than merely living to a 'Godly' age.


A weakened or non existent Caliphate would be hard pressed to resist the Steppe invasions of the next several hundred years as well as they did, all those Central Asian hordes were turned away from the south and into Europe. It's easy to forget just how devastating those invasions were to European politics and society. The Euros didn't get their siege mentality from just anywhere, they got it from the continual waves of invaders that brought down Western Rome and has continued to the freaking present day!


Now imagine those invasions cracking through and breaking into Persia and Arabia, of Baghdad burning under the relentless and remorseless Mongol Hordes as Vienna was annihilated in the Christian year 1258...


That's always been the issue with Europe, with its massive amounts of rivers and coastlines it's always been exceedingly easy to invade and/or divide and conquer or even just isolate. It suited the Western Romans when they were the ones doing the invading, but once the tables were turned.

In many ways Europe is far more suitable for industrial development than either China or Arabia/Persia, they don't have much oil but they more than make up for that in coal, iron and other basic ores, there are vast forests of good timber and far more arable land. During Europe's 'Golden Age,' between CY 1600-1700 or so there were several great trading empires (Flanders, Hanseatic League) that used some of Europe's advantages very well before collapsing to the endless tribal wars that plague the continent.

 

[Derekc2]

Just one thing Catholicism and Calvinism =/= Christianity as E. Rome and Christians outside of Europe clearly demonstrate.

Honestly though, Europe could have been ripe for industrialization if the Eastern powers had been weakened or fallen during their formative years. The Caliphate wouldn't exist if Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib hadn't dodged several knives, as it was the Shia 'schism' ran pretty deep and I shudder to think how bad it would have been if Ali had been a martyr rather than merely living to a 'Godly' age.


A weakened or non existent Caliphate would be hard pressed to resist the Steppe invasions of the next several hundred years as well as they did, all those Central Asian hordes were turned away from the south and into Europe. It's easy to forget just how devastating those invasions were to European politics and society. The Euros didn't get their siege mentality from just anywhere, they got it from the continual waves of invaders that brought down Western Rome and has continued to the freaking present day!


Now imagine those invasions cracking through and breaking into Persia and Arabia, of Baghdad burning under the relentless and remorseless Mongol Hordes as Vienna was annihilated in the Christian year 1258...


That's always been the issue with Europe, with its massive amounts of rivers and coastlines it's always been exceedingly easy to invade and/or divide and conquer or even just isolate. It suited the Western Romans when they were the ones doing the invading, but once the tables were turned...

God in heaven! Let me say thanks to god that the Eastern Roman empire didn't share the same fate as the catholics did.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Except for the Balkans; there's a reason why Asia Minor was the heart of the Empire until the 19th Century.

 

[Derekc2]

Except for the Balkans; there's a reason why Asia Minor was the heart of the Empire until the 19th Century.

I thought that was becouse it had all the usefull parts.

And really it still is the heart of the empire.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

I thought that was becouse it had all the usefull parts.

And really it still is the heart of the empire.

True, but the Balkans would have done better if not for the Avars, the Slavs, the Petchengs, the Normans, and the Mongols wrecking stuff every few centuries. And of course, there was the so-called 'Third Bulgarian Rebellion', which not even the majority of Bulgarians sided with.

 

[Derekc2]

True, but the Balkans would have done better if not for the Avars, the Slavs, the Petchengs, the Normans, and the Mongols wrecking stuff every few centuries. And of course, there was the so-called 'Third Bulgarian Rebellion', which not even the majority of Bulgarians sided with.

The mongols never touched the balkans. When they tried we repulsed them and they went else were.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Oh, right, the Battle of Vlachia. Of course, that led the Mongols to sack Vienna later on.

 

[Derekc2]

Oh, right, the Battle of Vlachia. Of course, that led the Mongols to sack Vienna later on.

Yeah. We kicked the mongols away from the balkans and on to those germans.

Those poor, poor germans.

 

[eliphas8]

The mongols never touched the balkans. When they tried we repulsed them and they went else were.

They never ruled the Balkans but they did do horrific damage to them, Bulgaria was devastated after they sacked Sofia, Croatia lost about a tenth of its people and Serbia was broken as a political entity for a very long time. They never made it too far into Greece but they could have at some point and the unsuccessful the siege of Thessaloniki shows just how close a call it was.

 

[Derekc2]

They never ruled the Balkans but they did do horrific damage to them, Bulgaria was devastated after they sacked Sofia, Croatia lost about a tenth of its people and Serbia was broken as a political entity for a very long time. They never made it too far into Greece but they could have at some point and the unsuccessful the siege of Thessaloniki shows just how close a call it was.

What world are you from exacly? Serbia is and never has bean a political entity, we stoped them at the danube.

 

[eliphas8]

What world are you from exacly? Serbia is and never has bean a political entity, we stoped them at the danube.

OOC: Okay the canon for this is already kind of muddled but im pretty sure the POD was after the Serbians moved in (im pretty sure the POD was a Roman victory at Manzikert)

 

[Derekc2]

OOC: Okay the canon for this is already kind of muddled but im pretty sure the POD was after the Serbians moved in (im pretty sure the POD was a Roman victory at Manzikert)

OOC: I meant was that serbia in this world has always been ruled over by other people, so I was acting confused about the serbian as a political unit. It's an ethnicy but nothing more in this world.

 

[eliphas8]

OOC: I meant was that serbia in this world has always been ruled over by other people, so I was acting confused about the serbian as a political unite. It's an ethnicy but nothing more.

OOC: Oh, that post seems to imply that the Serbs migration into the empire never happened nevermind.

IC: It may have been a vassal to the empire but following the Mongol invasions it was pretty much anarchy in the region for a very long time, their incorporation into the empire as a province came after a long time spent crushing rebels and bandits who had pretty much carved Serbia into a hundred tiny warlordships.

 

[Sam R.]

As an Eastern Christian, raised by an Eastern Christian, I think that you are all underestimating the genuine insights into the nature of consciousness and being that have been made by Christians or culturally Christian Jews. My parents raised me on a healthy diet of Spinoza and Moore, despite their Buddhist backgrounds. The growing Eastern Christian movement demonstrates quite clearly the success of the mystical insights of the ancient Occident, of the inscrutable Westerner. We've all seen the pop stars singing while strapped upside down to crucifixes—mystic Christianity is "in."

yours in Christ,
Sam R.

 

[Sean Mulligan]

OOC: One of the reasons for the success of the Reformation was the use of the printing press to spread Luther and Calvin's teachings. If the Church had banned the printing press in Europe the various reformers would likely have been crushed just like the Hussites were in the 1400's.

 

[lloyd007]

One good POD would be one of the ethnicities of the British Isles to unite them, or for the Roman Britons to remain in power and create a western analogue to Constantinople in London. Britannia was never assaulted by the Steppe peoples, and as bad as the Norse were, they couldn't compare to the sheer destructive butchery of the Turkic tribes, let alone the Mongols. A united Britannia would make Japan's island advantage look like small turnips with the rest of Europe in absolute chaos and easily exploitable. The United Brits would also easily beat the Chinese to Fusang and have the easier time of expanding along the east coast rather than the rugged west coast. Britain has huge and easily exploitable reserves of coal, iron and copper.

If Britain unifies and is able to 'tech up' before Al Andalus and the rest of the East starts to colonize the place and keeps the local lords feuding for their own purposes it could rival E. Rome in power or even blow bast anyone and everyone if it colonizes Fusang and Al-Anhuac... Heck, check out Omar's great TL "An Empire Under the Sun" where a United Britain does exactly that after the fall of Rome by successfully repelling/absorbing the Germanic tribes and later the Norse.

 

[Kaiphranos]

The United Brits would also easily beat the Chinese to Fusang and have the easier time of expanding along the east coast rather than the rugged west coast.

Are you sure about that? The east had some of the most powerful native states (the Iroquois and Powhatan confederacies) that put up the toughest fights against the Fusangese, while the tribes around the initial settlements on the west coast were just hunter-gatherers. I think your "United British" may be in for a tough time if they try to land...

 

[wolf_brother]

Also you have to consider that the Europeans shared the Atlantic ocean with the African and Mediterranean Islamic empires. How would "Britons" or any other hypothetical would-be colonizing European state handle the Islaminization of much of Al-Anhuac and even some areas of Fusang?