Glen

Moderator
I'm not sure I agree with your analysis here- after all, Brainbin managed to elect Hubert Humphrey president in his story using "secondary chaos effects" sprouting from his pop culture POD!

But with a very clear chain of events that could be traced right back to the POD. It wasn't actually a secondary effect of chaos, but an actual causal chain.
 
I'm not sure I agree with your analysis here- after all, Brainbin managed to elect Hubert Humphrey president in his story using "secondary chaos effects" sprouting from his pop culture POD!
Not "secondary chaos" effects--a direct chain of cause and effect.
1) Lucy stays in control of Desilu instead of selling it to Paramount and focusing on her continuing acting career.
2) Because of that, and her noted tendency to stand up for ideas she liked when she felt were strong, she goes to bat for Star Trek with NBC, getting it a better timeslot by bumping Laugh-In by half and hour.
3) George Schlatter, that show's creator, quits over the incident (believing that it's favoring an unproven show over his proven ability, and that he can do better elsewhere) much as Roddenberry almost did OTL (only stopped by the fact that he didn't think anywhere else would give his ideas a chance, since Star Trek wasn't exactly a smash success).
4) Because of that, Schlatter isn't there to suggest having the 1968 candidates on for cameos on the show--a cameo which Nixon took and Humphery did not.

Brainbin then used demographic data and election math to make a solid case that without the appearance on Laugh-In, Nixon might fall just short of victory instead of just barely getting a win. Far from being hand-waved "choas effect" butterflies, it's a direct causal chain--exactly the sort of thing Glen was talking about Brainbin preferring.
 

Glen

Moderator
Not "secondary chaos" effects--a direct chain of cause and effect.
1) Lucy stays in control of Desilu instead of selling it to Paramount and focusing on her continuing acting career.
2) Because of that, and her noted tendency to stand up for ideas she liked when she felt were strong, she goes to bat for Star Trek with NBC, getting it a better timeslot by bumping Laugh-In by half and hour.
3) George Schlatter, that show's creator, quits over the incident (believing that it's favoring an unproven show over his proven ability, and that he can do better elsewhere) much as Roddenberry almost did OTL (only stopped by the fact that he didn't think anywhere else would give his ideas a chance, since Star Trek wasn't exactly a smash success).
4) Because of that, Schlatter isn't there to suggest having the 1968 candidates on for cameos on the show--a cameo which Nixon took and Humphery did not.

Brainbin then used demographic data and election math to make a solid case that without the appearance on Laugh-In, Nixon might fall just short of victory instead of just barely getting a win. Far from being hand-waved "choas effect" butterflies, it's a direct causal chain--exactly the sort of thing Glen was talking about Brainbin preferring.

Thanks for laying that out, e of pi! I'm kinda tired myself....
 
Thank you all, once again, for your many comments! It's very gratifying to know that this little timeline of mine can inspire so much fruitful discussion :)

On Jane Fonda - I think it would take some very, very strong and specifically targeted butterflies to take her out career-wise when it has already made a significant change in her favor. Fonda will not have the PR issues she had IOTL, and she will have a very successful career. This is one thing I am afraid is pretty inevitable barring some serious monkeying - basically a second POD.
Precisely. ITTL, she'll be one of the biggest stars in 1970s Hollywood. Yet more proof that I am not writing a utopia!

Hum... maybe a chance of an upcoming big-budget adaptation of Thomas J. Ryan's "The Adolescence of P1" (of 1977)?
I'll have to keep that in mind for the future.

Can I suggest a small cheat? Mention (in passing) films based on non-OTL books?
We'll have to see. That goes into the same problem I had when I was creating episode synopses for the later episodes of Star Trek; namely it requires a certain kind of creativity that is different from writing timelines, and is much more challenging to me. If I was really good at that sort of thing, I would be doing it for a living ;)

phx1138 said:
Prototype is still impossible today. In the '70s, even moreso.
Space elevators are not happening in That Wacky Redhead, for that very reason.

That's a shame. By "strict historical accuracy" I guess that you mean that there would have to be more American POWs.
Among other things, yes.

NCW8 said:
Just a final note that Kenny Everett seems to have played an important role in getting Bohemian Rhapsody released as a single. He also gave William Shatner's version of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds some air play (as part of his "Bottom 30").
He, or someone like him, would have an embarrassment of riches ITTL, as Shatner released three albums, rather than just the one. The material he might cover on the latter two is endless. "Space Oddity" seems a fairly reasonable choice, and how about "Your Song", or "A Case of You"? :D

Also I haven't yet praised Brainbin for the update in question--while I did help him out, a lot of it is original research on his part, and very well researched it is too.
Thank you, Thande :)

Thande said:
Using The Library Mob for Last of the Summer Wine is eminently plausible though because apparently it was even on the shooting scripts and was changed at the last moment. Funny how they came up with the much better OTL title just on the spur of the moment.
Titles are usually very ephemeral things, and are the most subject to change due to outside forces - certainly, all the titles that were proposed but rejected for Monty Python's Flying Circus are an example (fun fact: I toyed with going ahead and using Whither Canada? instead, but decided against it). I agree that the OTL title was much better, but I like The Library Mob because it strikes me as a more "quintessentially British" title (They're A Weird Mob, The Lavender Hill Mob, and so on).

Thande said:
(You might want to mention in a footnote that Those Were The Days is TTL's equivalent of All in the Family--I know you said it's the American remake of Till Death Do Us Part just the same, but few people in the US seem to realise that All in the Family was a foreign remake in the first place).
I added footnotes linking the reader to previous posts on those subjects - part of the reason that I was relatively sparse on the details in the update proper :)

Oho, I see what you mean. Yes, they might do that, and it could happen. Their producer, John Ammonds, was famous in the business for being able to get anyone as a guest star, no exceptions.* Eddie Braben says in his book that sometimes he half suspected that Ammonds had a collection of blackmail photos on every great theatrical actor and TV superstar in the United Kingdom. Getting Shatner and Nimoy would be hard but if anyone could do it, it would be Ammonds.
Shatner would definitely be game c. 1973, by which time the only ways to keep that sketch fresh would be to reverse it (what is Mr Darcy doing aboard the Enterprise?), or to actually feature Shatner and Nimoy as Kirk and Spock; no doubt with them joking about "imposters" running around, and referencing how this sort of thing keeps happening ever since having met the Doctor some years before. Nimoy, on the other hand... though he always got along fairly well with Shatner and would be willing to share the stage with him once again, he's primarily directing by this point ITTL. But if you're sure that Ammonds can swing anyone, then why not? Have him flown in, all-expenses-paid, stopping by as the guest of honour at some Star Trek convention while he's over there, et voila! And put them in a Golden Age musical, to boot? Sounds good to me!

Due to my lack of knowledge on anything related to British television, I can't really say much. That being said, interesting update!
Thank you, vultan! I always appreciate your encouraging words. I'm sure you'll find the next update more intriguing :)

Still it one of the forgoten TV sci fi
alone with the Half hour Pilot of The House with a Clock in the Wall based on the John Bellairs
The Finish Lord of the RIng adaption call the Hobbits
and the Play of the Day two part adaption of William Gibson Neuromancer
All in the OTL
And I shall have to investigate the viability of their potential production ITTL. Thank you for those suggestions.

Murder, Accidents, and Infections should be pretty easy to butterfly away if desired.
Heart Attacks and Cancer less so without a causal lifestyle change, though the timing of death could be different by months even a year or two. Once we get into the 1980s with some people liviing different lives even more is possible.
This is very true - although both Cooper and Morecambe died in 1984 IOTL, eighteen years after the POD. But on the whole, butterflying away natural deaths is always a tough call for me to make. It seems far too contrived to save lives, especially when I am not having characters die earlier than IOTL in retribution. (That said, there is a premature death on the way that I'm "putting in the bank", so to speak, to use against potential life-saving). Accidents and events, I agree, are easily butterflied.

Or, one might argue, butterfly in, if desired... (Did somebody say "Jane Fonda"?:p)
Please stop asking me to kill characters off. I'm not J.K. Rowling, you know :rolleyes:

Not "secondary chaos" effects--a direct chain of cause and effect.
1) Lucy stays in control of Desilu instead of selling it to Paramount and focusing on her continuing acting career.
2) Because of that, and her noted tendency to stand up for ideas she liked when she felt were strong, she goes to bat for Star Trek with NBC, getting it a better timeslot by bumping Laugh-In by half and hour.
3) George Schlatter, that show's creator, quits over the incident (believing that it's favoring an unproven show over his proven ability, and that he can do better elsewhere) much as Roddenberry almost did OTL (only stopped by the fact that he didn't think anywhere else would give his ideas a chance, since Star Trek wasn't exactly a smash success).
4) Because of that, Schlatter isn't there to suggest having the 1968 candidates on for cameos on the show--a cameo which Nixon took and Humphery did not.

Brainbin then used demographic data and election math to make a solid case that without the appearance on Laugh-In, Nixon might fall just short of victory instead of just barely getting a win. Far from being hand-waved "choas effect" butterflies, it's a direct causal chain--exactly the sort of thing Glen was talking about Brainbin preferring.
That's a very sound explanation of my reasoning, e of pi, thank you very much. I had to be very careful with that one, because it happened so soon after my POD. Now, that said, there will be "secondary chaos effects" - pure butterflies - in this timeline, as our distance from the POD increases, and Humphrey makes a great cover :cool:

I agree with you two.

It seems we're having quite the violent agreement. :)

Dude, happens. Peace!:D
Awww, you guys :eek:

I hope to have the Tripartite Political Update ready in the next couple of days. I hope to have it stand out as one of the marquee updates of the timeline!
 
Brainbin said:
Precisely. ITTL, she'll be one of the biggest stars in 1970s Hollywood.
:eek::eek::mad:
Brainbin said:
Yet more proof that I am not writing a utopia!
That's for sure.;)
Brainbin said:
We'll have to see. That goes into the same problem I had when I was creating episode synopses for the later episodes of Star Trek; namely it requires a certain kind of creativity that is different from writing timelines, and is much more challenging to me. If I was really good at that sort of thing, I would be doing it for a living ;)
Fair enough.:)
Brainbin said:
on the whole, butterflying away natural deaths is always a tough call for me to make.
For me, the question is, are there cultural changes? That is, frex, is cigarette smoking more/less popular? (Has science caught up with perception?) Is drinking & driving more discouraged? (All compared to OTL, obviously.)
Brainbin said:
It seems far too contrived to save lives, especially when I am not having characters die earlier than IOTL in retribution.
IDK. If it's credible... A different career path that keeps a performer from being at a particular place & time, where he died OTL, can easily mean he lives ATL. Even as small a thing as a different tour promoter can save lives: had the promoter been different, Buddy Holly & Ritchie Valens would never have been aboard that B.18. (Or, at least, I think it was a B.18.:eek:)
Brainbin said:
Please stop asking me to kill characters off.
I couldn't resist. I saw a bus going by, &...:p
 

Thande

Donor
Titles are usually very ephemeral things, and are the most subject to change due to outside forces - certainly, all the titles that were proposed but rejected for Monty Python's Flying Circus are an example (fun fact: I toyed with going ahead and using Whither Canada? instead, but decided against it). I agree that the OTL title was much better, but I like The Library Mob because it strikes me as a more "quintessentially British" title (They're A Weird Mob, The Lavender Hill Mob, and so on).

A lot of the rejected Python titles were reused as episode titles for the first series; offhand other ones I remember are "The Ant, An Introduction" and "Owl-Stretching Time". If you want to mention the Python's underrated rivals The Goodies (later partly responsible for I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue), the working title for that show was Narrow Your Mind, a reference to an older programme they worked on (lost to BBC tape-wipes) called Broaden Your Mind.
 
He, or someone like him, would have an embarrassment of riches ITTL, as Shatner released three albums, rather than just the one. The material he might cover on the latter two is endless. "Space Oddity" seems a fairly reasonable choice, and how about "Your Song", or "A Case of You"? :D

If you wanted to make it a real dystopia, you could have Shatner make a cover version of Bohemian Rhapsody.

A lot of the rejected Python titles were reused as episode titles for the first series; offhand other ones I remember are "The Ant, An Introduction" and "Owl-Stretching Time".

Another of the working titles was Bunn, Wackett, Buzzard, Stubble and Boot, which ended up being one of the line-ups of the Barnstoneworth United team in Palin's Ripping Yarns episode Golden Gordon.

Cheers,
Nigel.
 
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pbaustin2

Banned
Patrick Troughton's death might be earlier: part of the reason he worked himself into the grave IOTL was partly an attempt to avoid typecasting as the Doctor - with his era being even more successful in syndication in TTL, his OTL 1978 heart attack might even be fatal as well as hastened?
 

Glen

Moderator
Patrick Troughton's death might be earlier: part of the reason he worked himself into the grave IOTL was partly an attempt to avoid typecasting as the Doctor - with his era being even more successful in syndication in TTL, his OTL 1978 heart attack might even be fatal as well as hastened?

A good thought, but I don't think it would change much - he was trying to avoid being typecast in the UK, not the US, and that is where I imagine the syndication effect is felt.

Actually, this is a good question, Brainbin. With the Queen of the Rerun now having a syndication interest in Doctor Who, does Desilu do anything to push for more reruns in the UK. From what I am given to understand, reruns were exceedingly rare in the UK (unlike the US), so this would be a potential real change in culture.
 
Actually, this is a good question, Brainbin. With the Queen of the Rerun now having a syndication interest in Doctor Who, does Desilu do anything to push for more reruns in the UK. From what I am given to understand, reruns were exceedingly rare in the UK (unlike the US), so this would be a potential real change in culture.

Strangely, the Star Trek episodes were shown several times on the BBC during the seventies, but reruns of Dr Who were very rare. I think that a couple of the Hartnell, Troughton and Pertwee stories were rerun for the fifteenth aniversary, but that was about it. Somehow I doubt that Desilu would be able to change that, or would even want to - after all they wouldn't earn anything from UK reruns.

Cheers,
Nigel
 

Glen

Moderator
Strangely, the Star Trek episodes were shown several times on the BBC during the seventies, but reruns of Dr Who were very rare. I think that a couple of the Hartnell, Troughton and Pertwee stories were rerun for the fifteenth aniversary, but that was about it. Somehow I doubt that Desilu would be able to change that, or would even want to - after all they wouldn't earn anything from UK reruns.

Cheers,
Nigel

Hmmm odd that Star Trek got play but not Doctor Who. I suppose you have a point about there being no profit in it for Desilu now that I think of it, and the Doctor gets good airplay OTL in Australia without the BBC taking the hint.
 
Hmmm odd that Star Trek got play but not Doctor Who. I suppose you have a point about there being no profit in it for Desilu now that I think of it, and the Doctor gets good airplay OTL in Australia without the BBC taking the hint.

It was mainly due to Equity (the actors union) which limited the number of times that a tv show could be repeated, in order to safeguard employment for actors. This is one of the reasons why tapes of episodes were wiped - if a show couldn't be broadcast again then there was no point keeping it. Imported series weren't subject to the same limits, so could be repeated more often (subject to limits on the amount of non-UK programmes that could be broadcast). Towards the end of the seventies, the limits on repeats were relaxed, so reruns became commoner in the eighties.

Cheers,
Nigel.
 
Thank you all, once again, for your many comments! It's very gratifying to know that this little timeline of mine can inspire so much fruitful discussion :)

Precisely. ITTL, she'll be one of the biggest stars in 1970s Hollywood. Yet more proof that I am not writing a utopia!

Please stop asking me to kill characters off. I'm not J.K. Rowling, you know :rolleyes:

Although I'm very neutral towards Jane Fonda, maybe she having some star-derailing roles and box-office bombs would a good equivalent.

Depending of how nuclear technology is viewed ITTL, "The China Syndrome" could be the start of it - although Jack Lemmon give a good perfomance of the movie.

Space elevators are not happening in That Wacky Redhead, for that very reason.

Fair enough. If people just consider it seriously it will be enough :p
 

Glen

Moderator
It was mainly due to Equity (the actors union) which limited the number of times that a tv show could be repeated, in order to safeguard employment for actors. This is one of the reasons why tapes of episodes were wiped - if a show couldn't be broadcast again then there was no point keeping it. Imported series weren't subject to the same limits, so could be repeated more often (subject to limits on the amount of non-UK programmes that could be broadcast). Towards the end of the seventies, the limits on repeats were relaxed, so reruns became commoner in the eighties.

Cheers,
Nigel.

Thanks, Nigel! That's a real gem of pop culture information. Now at least some of the obscenities committed by the BBC make sense. Talk about inadvertent evil. Hadn't British Equity ever heard of residuals? They could have gotten their members paid even without doing more work!

Just having a timeline where the BBC is incentivized to save the past would be worth doing.
 

Glen

Moderator
Although I'm very neutral towards Jane Fonda, maybe she having some star-derailing roles and box-office bombs would a good equivalent.

That's a fair point - getting more work in the 1970s could cut both ways, allowing her to avoid some career derailing roles.

Depending of how nuclear technology is viewed ITTL, "The China Syndrome" could be the start of it - although Jack Lemmon give a good perfomance of the movie.

Naw, that will probably not be a career killer movie ITTL.

Fair enough. If people just consider it seriously it will be enough :p

Yep.
 
Glen said:
Thanks, Nigel! That's a real gem of pop culture information.
Yeah. Who knew they were so dumb?:eek:
Glen said:
Hadn't British Equity ever heard of residuals?
Not to mention new formats: video sales could be a big deal. Or was this deal done before that came along?
 

Thande

Donor
The Equity rules were drawn up long before home recording and tapes was a thing. It was based on the fact that TV studios could tape their broadcasts, rather than them being sent out live, and then repeat them, which was unheard of. It makes sense in context. Basically it's like the anti-piracy debate nowadays: every time it seems there's a way for people to watch media with the link to paying its producer being potentially broken, all the media people run around with their hair on fire trying to stop it.

If you want an even earlier example of this, see this Edison phonograph recording from 1888, where Sir Arthur Sullivan (of Gilbert and Sullivan fame) tries out this newfangled recording machine, and literally the first thing he thinks of to say is that it will pose a threat to composers and musicians like himself because they will no longer have to be booked live.
 
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