TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
Flubber
Banned
Why?
One of the bigger implausibilities in a series full of implausibilities is how Turtledove lets Japan get off scot-free over the course of three wars, twice while on the losing side and once after attacking the US without warning during a presidential campaign.
David bar Elias' coming beat down of Japan in this Fourth Pacific War is simply a restoration of sanity to the all-too-usual Turtledovian douchebaggery.
I kinda have to agree here. However after two Great Wars I don't see the world ready to engage in another full scale war. The US also already has way too much on its plate with trying reincorporating the South into the Union.
So if the US can't push full power, Germany and Austria don't get involved directly, and Brazil and the Ottomans maintain neutrality hoping to gain some new members to the IM from the conflict, the best shot is to let Japan tire and crumble under its own weight. China, Mongolia, Manchuko, Korea, will likely get independence and fall under a Russian-American sphere of influence. But unless island hopping ala OTL is involved Japan might be able to retain some of it island Empire in the final treaty.
Also I only see this was ending fast with a coup against Ishi, (and maybe even the Emperor).
Great update David.
But it holding onto it requires the other nations of the world to be willfully ignorant of the danger a Japanese Empire poses. And in any case, I hardly think that Japan holding onto Korea would be a refreshing change...especially not for the Koreans.
Vexacus
Banned
If the Japanese kleep Korea and maybe Formossa, they could be kept in check by the US and othe rnations but if they have to loose their Empire, at least let them keep either Korea or Formosa
Vexacus
Banned
Why not? Besides, why do they have to loose their Empire in every timeline? Could they not keep a small part of it and are forced to become more democratic/less xenophobic? Besides, it would be nice to see a TL where Japan keeps part of it's Empire
Because Japan will come into conflict with America due to Pacific expansionism, and Japan simply doesn't have the strength to fight down an America with 5 times the industrial strength it has, plus all the other nations it pissed off in its conquest of the Pacific, and any successful Japanese Empire will require multiple external factors or some serious wanking (as in TL-191). It's not impossible for Japan to hold onto Korea; maybe Formosa, certainly interesting, but certainly not nice for the Koreans or Formosans. I agree that a successful Japanese Empire would be interesting, but certainly not nice.
However, those concerns are minor compared to the fact that there's no reason for the US to not stomp on Japan.
Vexacus
Banned
In this TL, the US has [probems of its own to deal with. They could limit the size of the Empire of japan but not invade them. It could be like the US/Soviet Union relations where each side does not trust the other
I agree that this may have been the case to some extent before 1944 (though admittedly, the need to expand the Army at the expense of the Navy seems to not have had too much of an effect on the Navy), but the US has largely resolved its other problems at this point. At this point, it can concentrate on Japan. And to be honest, I think that the US, as it is using nuclear power, will probably be able to dictate terms to the Japanese. It all really boils down to what the negotiators will want.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
They could also Annihilate Japan without fear of more retaliation, and given the fact they already used 20 nukes on the Japanese and the Japanese launched a WMD first strike that option is likely on the table
Flubber
Banned
Have you even been reading the same thread as the rest of us?
It's apparent you're some sort of knee-jerk Japan wanker, especially when you suggest that Korea remain under the tender ministrations of the Japanese empire, but you must be willfully ignorant to suggest the Ishii government described in this thread would be willing to accept a diplomatic solution or that the other government involved would be willing to trust the Ishii government.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Japan already launched poison gas attacks against the USA, a USA as paranoid as the OTL USSR, more than willing to use nukes, there is nothing left to negotiate, the war has already started
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Honestly any post-1900 thread were Japan beats the US is ASB, in WWII the USA outweighed Japan 13 to 1 in terms of industry, Japan is way out of its league
Nice electoral map, Arkhangelsk!More map making out of boredom, been playing around with one of the base electoral maps on here...and came up with this, an election map of the United States as of 1968. The electoral vote numbers are all my guesses, if you guys feel they're off please feel free to point them out to me and I'll see what I can do. Enjoy!
Oh and truly excellent update David, this last one was truly wonderful. March can't come any sooner.