The Power and the Glitter!
- Thread starter vultan
- Start date
I agree that they could probably pull off keeping Hamill's casting very quiet in this era; even in our own post-internet age, Tom Cruise in Tropic Thunder was kept under wraps pretty much all the way through. And we know that Hamill is good at keeping big secrets
But will it pay off? I'm ambivalent on the issue. People are watching the movie, totally wrapped up in his performance, then suddenly off comes the mask and... Luke Skywalker?! That might jar people out of the experience, remind them that they're watching a movie, even elicit a few laughs. It would totally destroy the narrative flow. But, if we let it be known from the beginning, what happens?
"He is gonna suck. He is gonna suck. You guys, he is totally gonna suck... Oh my god you guys, he was awesome!"
We've seen it happen often enough IOTL. Michael Keaton as Batman. Daniel Craig as James Bond. Even, arguably, Heath Ledger as the Joker (though, in his case, a lot of people were brought onside before the movie actually came out, for various reasons). And granted, I'm sure there are still holdouts against some of those casting choices on this forum, but we're talking about consensus opinions, here.
There's definitely more upside with the second option. And the memories of Michael Keaton totally shattering everyone's expectations as Batman are still fresh in people's minds in the early 1990s. Therefore, I think they would indeed go in that direction.
Also, with regards to billing: I suspect that it would be SCHWARZENEGGER - WATCHMEN - RUSSELL - STONE. The other three principals are all character actors whose names wouldn't draw anyone in. Arnold would definitely be above the title in this, the height of his popularity.
Re Torqumada, Brainbin: It could be kept secret, yes, but I actually had the whole Michael Keaton example in mind, which is probably why Cameron didn't go for it. Had the movie, for whatever reason, been made before Batman, I don't think Hamill would have even gotten the part.
Also, agreed on billing. Campbell, Spiner, and Hamill are extraneous compared to the others.
Also, agreed on billing. Campbell, Spiner, and Hamill are extraneous compared to the others.
Great Idea for a TL, and its taken off really nicely too.
from the looks of things this is going to be awesome, keep up the good work.
from the looks of things this is going to be awesome, keep up the good work.
Before I go on to Watchmen's production, I thought I'd have a little fun... (plus, it might be a while before the next update, so I just wanted to get this out)
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Star Trek: The Next Generation Reacts to Spiner’s Role
When Brent Spiner signed on to play Doctor Manhattan in James Cameron’s Watchmen, there was a mixed reaction in the cast and crew of The Next Generation. Most on the show, especially the cast, were happy for him. “He’s got a shot now, a real shot at the big time” Michael Dorn (Worf) commented. However, some on the writing and production side were more reserved. Filming for episodes of the seventh and last season of the series partly conflicted with the filming of Watchmen (from March to July), and though most of Spiner’s role would be consist of his voice acting, the shooting of his live action scenes were scheduled near the end of production- meaning that Spiner missing the shooting of several episodes would be unavoidable. Attempts were made to change this, though in the end it was more of a priority for Cameron to protect Arnold Schwarzenegger’s (Adrian Veidt/Ozymandias) and Kurt Russell’s (Dan Dreiberg/Nite Owl) schedules. As many of the scripts for the episodes in the early part of the seasoning were nearing completion, it would be difficult to get rework the plots of many episodes the subtract Data. Showrunner Jeri Taylor, The Next Generations’ show runner, insisted that they needed a character similar to Data to fill out the androids’ role in the episodes in question. It was staff writer Brannon Braga who came up the winning idea.
The last episode of Season 6, “Descent, Part I” (a Data-centric story, where he confronts once again his “evil twin” Lore), would feature the Borg as the main villains. The Borg was a collective of cyborgs coming from many different races, including humans, whose members had no individuality. The primary goal of the Borg was to go throughout the cosmos “assimilating” other races, their cultures, and their technologies into the greater collective. Braga’s conceit was that, in the course of the episode, a subplot would emerge where Doctor Crusher (Gates McFadden) would try to isolate an individual Borg and “cure” it of its connection to the collective. This “drone” would then be featured in the next couple of episodes trying to regain its individuality and experience human emotions [1]. As Data was absent in the first several episodes (his absence was explained by him being requested by Starfleet to tour other ships in the armada, making sure they were prepared to resist a Borg assault), the drone’s great knowledge of science (gotten from his leftover databank) would make him invaluable to the crew in these matters. Casting went out for a young white male to portray the Borg “Vosima” (an anagram of Asimov, the famed science fiction writer. As Braga would put it, “Yeah, I know, it was sorta silly. Sue me, the clock was ticking.”)
The role went to then-unknown Edward Norton, who excelled at his New York audition. Norton’s innate acting chops established Vosima as one of the most complex and compelling characters on The Next Generation, and he quickly became a fan favorite. His tenure on the show was so well-received that his role did not diminish greatly when Spiner was able to return in the latter part of the season (in fact, some of the best scenes of the show’s seventh season were Data and Vosima working together. As one critic put it, “perfect deadpan”). Studios noticed the appealing young actor, and Norton started getting a lot of movie offers, enough to turn down supporting roles in Deep Space Nine and Voyager (though he did have a substantial role in Star Trek Generations and a cameo in Star Trek: Regeneration [2]). Edward Norton would become one of the breakout stars of the 1990’s, and win two Academy Awards within the next ten years.
…
STAN LUNDINE BECOMES GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK
Associated Press, December 20th, 1992
ALBANY- Lieutenant Governor Stan Lundine has become the 53rd Governor of the state of New York. Lundine assumed the office when Mario Cuomo vacated his gubernatorial duties in preparation to be inaugurated as the next President of the United States next month…
…
CALIFORNIA SENATOR HERSHCENSOHN RESIGNS
Associated Press, September 17th, 1993
LOS ANGELES- Republican Senator Bruce Herschensohn, who had narrowly defeated Barbara Boxer last year, has announced his resignations from his office less than a year into his term, amid allegations that he had been frequenting strip clubs in Hollywood…
…
CONGRESSMAN TOM CAMPBELL TO BECOME NEW SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA
Associated Press, October 2nd, 1993
SACRAMENTO- Governor Pete Wilson has announced his choice to replace Bruce Herschensohn as United States Senator: Thomas Campbell, the former Representative from California’s 12th district… [3]
…
Stargate Finds Another Lead
With their first choice, Kurt Russell, unavailable due to his casting in Watchmen, director Roland Emmerich and writer Dean Devlin needed another actor to portray their lead character, Colonel Jack O’Neil. After Harrison Ford declined the role, they decided to reluctantly look at the leads in television shows. Eventually, however, they found someone they liked enough to offer an audition. Well, Emmerich liked him; Devlin was unsure, offering “He’s not really O’Neil…”- to which the director replied “So put another “L” in his last name. I like the guy” [4].
MacGyver had ended in 1992, and lead Richard Dean Anderson was looking for other roles. He accepted the chance to audition, and immediately impressed the writing/directing duo. Anderson was likable and funny in his audition, even when he was reading the more serious scenes. This was a fay-cry from how the character was written, but even the more skeptical Devlin. “He may not have been Jack”, the writer conceded, “but he sure as hell was a character. He's a great tension breaker”. Devlin rewrote parts of the script to change Jack O’Neil from a cold, brooding character to more humorous and sarcastic, to help accommodate Anderson and how he wanted to portray the role. [5] "The great part about it, though, was that the guy (Anderson) is really a great actor", Emmerich said. "Such a good actor that we didn't have to change the script that much: he could still be a more sad, tragic character, and his sense of humor was more a coping mechanism. Anderson really does convey that."
As Emmerich said to the studio executives, “He may not be a big star. But we think we’ve found the guy who can give us a hit.”
[1] Why, yes, this was Seven-of-Nine’s story arc! In our timeline, Brannon Braga was the one who came up with it, so since he’s under pressure here he comes up with something similar here.
[2] Essentially First Contact. SPOILER: with Tom Hanks.
[3] Did this for jerseyrules, as he was one of my more loyal readers for “You Get What You Give”. Well, he requested he become Governor, I think, but this is more interesting.
[4] Fanboy reference FTW!
[5] This is sort of how the character of Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean evolved once Johnny Depp got control of him.
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Thoughts?
---
Star Trek: The Next Generation Reacts to Spiner’s Role
When Brent Spiner signed on to play Doctor Manhattan in James Cameron’s Watchmen, there was a mixed reaction in the cast and crew of The Next Generation. Most on the show, especially the cast, were happy for him. “He’s got a shot now, a real shot at the big time” Michael Dorn (Worf) commented. However, some on the writing and production side were more reserved. Filming for episodes of the seventh and last season of the series partly conflicted with the filming of Watchmen (from March to July), and though most of Spiner’s role would be consist of his voice acting, the shooting of his live action scenes were scheduled near the end of production- meaning that Spiner missing the shooting of several episodes would be unavoidable. Attempts were made to change this, though in the end it was more of a priority for Cameron to protect Arnold Schwarzenegger’s (Adrian Veidt/Ozymandias) and Kurt Russell’s (Dan Dreiberg/Nite Owl) schedules. As many of the scripts for the episodes in the early part of the seasoning were nearing completion, it would be difficult to get rework the plots of many episodes the subtract Data. Showrunner Jeri Taylor, The Next Generations’ show runner, insisted that they needed a character similar to Data to fill out the androids’ role in the episodes in question. It was staff writer Brannon Braga who came up the winning idea.
The last episode of Season 6, “Descent, Part I” (a Data-centric story, where he confronts once again his “evil twin” Lore), would feature the Borg as the main villains. The Borg was a collective of cyborgs coming from many different races, including humans, whose members had no individuality. The primary goal of the Borg was to go throughout the cosmos “assimilating” other races, their cultures, and their technologies into the greater collective. Braga’s conceit was that, in the course of the episode, a subplot would emerge where Doctor Crusher (Gates McFadden) would try to isolate an individual Borg and “cure” it of its connection to the collective. This “drone” would then be featured in the next couple of episodes trying to regain its individuality and experience human emotions [1]. As Data was absent in the first several episodes (his absence was explained by him being requested by Starfleet to tour other ships in the armada, making sure they were prepared to resist a Borg assault), the drone’s great knowledge of science (gotten from his leftover databank) would make him invaluable to the crew in these matters. Casting went out for a young white male to portray the Borg “Vosima” (an anagram of Asimov, the famed science fiction writer. As Braga would put it, “Yeah, I know, it was sorta silly. Sue me, the clock was ticking.”)
The role went to then-unknown Edward Norton, who excelled at his New York audition. Norton’s innate acting chops established Vosima as one of the most complex and compelling characters on The Next Generation, and he quickly became a fan favorite. His tenure on the show was so well-received that his role did not diminish greatly when Spiner was able to return in the latter part of the season (in fact, some of the best scenes of the show’s seventh season were Data and Vosima working together. As one critic put it, “perfect deadpan”). Studios noticed the appealing young actor, and Norton started getting a lot of movie offers, enough to turn down supporting roles in Deep Space Nine and Voyager (though he did have a substantial role in Star Trek Generations and a cameo in Star Trek: Regeneration [2]). Edward Norton would become one of the breakout stars of the 1990’s, and win two Academy Awards within the next ten years.
…
STAN LUNDINE BECOMES GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK
Associated Press, December 20th, 1992
ALBANY- Lieutenant Governor Stan Lundine has become the 53rd Governor of the state of New York. Lundine assumed the office when Mario Cuomo vacated his gubernatorial duties in preparation to be inaugurated as the next President of the United States next month…
…
CALIFORNIA SENATOR HERSHCENSOHN RESIGNS
Associated Press, September 17th, 1993
LOS ANGELES- Republican Senator Bruce Herschensohn, who had narrowly defeated Barbara Boxer last year, has announced his resignations from his office less than a year into his term, amid allegations that he had been frequenting strip clubs in Hollywood…
…
CONGRESSMAN TOM CAMPBELL TO BECOME NEW SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA
Associated Press, October 2nd, 1993
SACRAMENTO- Governor Pete Wilson has announced his choice to replace Bruce Herschensohn as United States Senator: Thomas Campbell, the former Representative from California’s 12th district… [3]
…
Stargate Finds Another Lead
With their first choice, Kurt Russell, unavailable due to his casting in Watchmen, director Roland Emmerich and writer Dean Devlin needed another actor to portray their lead character, Colonel Jack O’Neil. After Harrison Ford declined the role, they decided to reluctantly look at the leads in television shows. Eventually, however, they found someone they liked enough to offer an audition. Well, Emmerich liked him; Devlin was unsure, offering “He’s not really O’Neil…”- to which the director replied “So put another “L” in his last name. I like the guy” [4].
MacGyver had ended in 1992, and lead Richard Dean Anderson was looking for other roles. He accepted the chance to audition, and immediately impressed the writing/directing duo. Anderson was likable and funny in his audition, even when he was reading the more serious scenes. This was a fay-cry from how the character was written, but even the more skeptical Devlin. “He may not have been Jack”, the writer conceded, “but he sure as hell was a character. He's a great tension breaker”. Devlin rewrote parts of the script to change Jack O’Neil from a cold, brooding character to more humorous and sarcastic, to help accommodate Anderson and how he wanted to portray the role. [5] "The great part about it, though, was that the guy (Anderson) is really a great actor", Emmerich said. "Such a good actor that we didn't have to change the script that much: he could still be a more sad, tragic character, and his sense of humor was more a coping mechanism. Anderson really does convey that."
As Emmerich said to the studio executives, “He may not be a big star. But we think we’ve found the guy who can give us a hit.”
[1] Why, yes, this was Seven-of-Nine’s story arc! In our timeline, Brannon Braga was the one who came up with it, so since he’s under pressure here he comes up with something similar here.
[2] Essentially First Contact. SPOILER: with Tom Hanks.
[3] Did this for jerseyrules, as he was one of my more loyal readers for “You Get What You Give”. Well, he requested he become Governor, I think, but this is more interesting.
[4] Fanboy reference FTW!
[5] This is sort of how the character of Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean evolved once Johnny Depp got control of him.
---
Thoughts?
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Yes! Is this the redo of "An end of History Timeline"? It's awesome!
Well, it's kind of a reboot, but it has a different focus. Welcome aboard.
This was a nice look at the trickle-down effects of your primary POD. Without knowing nearly as much about TNG or Stargate as I do certain other science-fiction series, I do have some comments with regards to the changes that you've made...
If you have an answer to my critique, I'll drop my objection But I just want to remind you about the dark side of show business.
On the whole, a very solid update! I look forward to the next one, whenever it may come.
It should probably be noted here that, IOTL, Spiner missed only one episode of the entire series, the highly peculiar "Family". (Only Stewart and Frakes missed fewer episodes - which is to say, none).
So here is my question. Why not make the character of Hugh serve as Data's replacement? He actually features in "Descent", and presumably audience response to him was good in order for that to happen in the first place.vultan said:
Obviously a very fascinating choice. This gives Norton major exposure some three years ahead of schedule.vultan said:
For *Primal Fear and *American History X? Assuming the butterflies don't get ahead of themselves. It's worth noting that both OTL winners in those categories from those years are among the most controversial in Oscar history: Cuba Gooding, Jr. for Jerry Maguire; and Roberto Benigni for Life is Beautiful. Of course, that would deprive TTL of two notoriously wretched acceptance speeches...vultan said:
Now let's see if he can defeat Pataki.vultan said:
Definitely the right kind of Republican to be a Senator from California. Perhaps the GOP's seemingly inexorable decline in the Golden State can indeed be mitigated. At the very least, the libertarian wing of the party has a new champion.vultan said:
Okay. I realize that he was cast in this role in the TV show. But the lead in a TV adaptation of a movie, on cable - even pay cable - in 1997, does not require nearly the same star power as opening a blockbuster movie. Let's remember who the other lead is: James Spader. Back then, he was "that guy from sex, lies, and videotape". Granted, most other Devlin/Emmerich movies haven't exactly been star vehicles, but they were at least able to bank on their own reputations as filmmakers; Stargate is their first major movie, and Russell is a bankable star. If the executives get wind of this, they're going to say "MacGyver is your lead?" That's how type casting works.vultan said:
If you have an answer to my critique, I'll drop my objection
But I just want to remind you about the dark side of show business.On the whole, a very solid update! I look forward to the next one, whenever it may come.
Thank you, and certainly.
Thank you for pointing out that I needed to put in an explanation for Data's absence. I had one thought out, but forgot to put it in. Well, it is now.
They may have liked him for the role, and maybe a return spot, but I doubt they would give an adolescent a semi-recurring role, for fear he becomes another Wesley Crusher.
In our timeline, he auditioned for several film roles before his casting in Primal Fear, and even that was a stroke of luck on his part: auditions were only opened because Matt Damon turned down the role.
Maybe, maybe not...
We'll see.
Two new champions. When William Weld said "the government should stay out of your wallet, and out of your bedroom" in his Vice Presidential acceptance speech, he got some fans. Ron Paul better watch out!
Oh, you're right. But who said the rest of the cast was going to be the same?
If you have an answer to my critique, I'll drop my objection
Understood. But see my comment above.
Won't be as rapid in succession as the other updates, but it should be soon-ish.
Thanks Brainbin! Now, discuss away, folks!
Thank you for Senator Tom Campbell
Your welcome, and thank you!
Well, now, MaskedPickle and I have worked together in the past, but I wouldn't feel comfortable taking an idea from him like that.
Make Pat Buchanan run for Governor? Ron Paul for senator? Phil Gramm in 96 maybe...?
That's fine. Have a worse 9/11 attack (or variation thereof). Besides, this TL couldn't be as bad as A Giant Sucking Sound got (especially for Japan in 1995).
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