Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[jycee]

I have to agree with Eschaton here. As cool as Kosgardianism is; it seems that it is being hyped up a bit too much.

I want to point out that the countries that have embraced it are all multi-ethnic countries and a hyper-nationalist movement is the last thing they should embrace. I can see why Russia finds it attractive, and perhaps other European countries like France or Scandinavia would too. But Austria-Hungary, by nature should stay away from it, and Prussia-Poland should to if it wants that hyphen to stay there and not become Prussia and Poland.

It is also somewhat sad to see the world going this dark. As it seemed TTL was somewhat overall more enlightened than OTL, with the Deist Church, a democratic China, etc.

I'll keep reading cause it is still a good TL. But I hope there is more to this rise of kosgardism than just a facist wank for the sake of one.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Hasn't Glen already pointed out that korsgaardianism isn't fascism? And yet you both have used them as interchangeable terms.

 

[Glen]

Not exactly. I'm saying that it's the natural reserve of an author to introduce elements into a story which are designed to enhance a story, and the leave out ones which serve no purpose. To quote Shchukin, writing about Chekhov's own writings (and because I think his wording drives the point home better than Chekhov's own):

"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."

Unless it is there to set the tone, ambiance, or enhance a point of characterization about the person that wall belongs to.

Or in this case, if you say that there is a Korsgaardian Party in the USA, it stands to reason that it will become a dominant force in US politics, even if only for a short time, otherwise people will ask why it was mentioned in the first place. Now it could be a literary device to, say, die a feeble death from lack of support but unwittingly inspire some other event elsewhere, but the more probable is that I'd say the USA will at some point either have a Korsgaardist President, or find its politics being affected one way or the other by Korsgaardist influence on political philosophies.

A possibility, true....

Quite. I would replace the British in that example with the Russians, even. Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas were so close that Wilhelm addressed his Russian counterpart in letters as "Cousin Nicky", and yet the two regnant monarchs - let's not pretend the UK joining WW1 was King George's idea - were at war with each other before Britain joined in, and though I can't explain it, I tend to view Germany's declaration of war on Russia as somewhat more "necessary" at the time than Britain's on Germany. I'd say that the pair of them were distraught at having to fight each other.

A fair point.

It would be interesting to see a world where no strong, viable and in any way mainstream leftist movement appears. It would, of course, also be interesting to see the left face off against the right. I guess whatever direction this story takes, I'm sure it will be interesting

I am gratified to hear you say that I will keep your interest either way....

 

[Glen]

Perhaps somebody writes a book that has a Dominion of Northern America, due to less incentive to rebel in canada, more in the south, and as a result Upper and Lower Canada and Nova Scotia stay loyal, while North and South Carolina and Georgia rebel

Naw, that sounds ASB....

 

[Glen]

Glen

Interesting that Prussia-Poland is willing to work with Austria on this rather than being rivals. Is their leadership not wishing to overtake the Hapsburg's as the dominant German power? Although that would be likely to be a deeply unpopular move in the Polish part of the state.

Steve

I know that someone else reminded you of Hanover led Germany. I posted later as well how the Prussia-Poland Kaiser is managing that with his Polish subjects.

 

[eschaton]

Hasn't Glen already pointed out that korsgaardianism isn't fascism? And yet you both have used them as interchangeable terms.

I didn't say they were interchangeable. Korsgaadianism in fact reminds me more of a slightly more modernized absolutist philosophy of the pre-enlightenment era.

My point is that while there are certainly reasons for the political elite to embrace the ideology, there is nothing to make it appealing as a mass movement, as was the case with fascism. Thus, while it's very easy to turn an authoritarian nation towards such an ideology, it is difficult to see in countries with an established electorate how the masses would vote to eliminate their own freedoms, without fear of something much, much worse bearing down on them.

 

[tubby.twins]

Naw, that sounds ASB....

Indeed, but only because Virginia must rebel if any of the other colonies do. That's one of the inviolable tenets of alternate history, right?

 

[Glen]

Most likely the Prussians see Germany as a bigger threat than Austria, so they are willing to work with the Austrians... for now

Exactly so. Plus there is the dual guarantee/threat of Russia, the 'big brother' in the relation between the three crowns. The Russians are using Prussia-Poland and Austria-Hungary as buffer states and allies against the West, and both nation fears the result of one turning on the other with regards to Russia then getting involved. Russia is turing their eyes to other directions.

 

[My Username is Inigo Montoya]

I didn't say they were interchangeable. Korsgaadianism in fact reminds me more of a slightly more modernized absolutist philosophy of the pre-enlightenment era.

My point is that while there are certainly reasons for the political elite to embrace the ideology, there is nothing to make it appealing as a mass movement, as was the case with fascism. Thus, while it's very easy to turn an authoritarian nation towards such an ideology, it is difficult to see in countries with an established electorate how the masses would vote to eliminate their own freedoms, without fear of something much, much worse bearing down on them.

Fascism never appeared in countries that had had no elections before. It's an illness of democracy, if you will, and therefore only shows up after some time of democratic experiment (often an unsuccessful one).

 

[eschaton]

Fascism never appeared in countries that had had no elections before. It's an illness of democracy, if you will, and therefore only shows up after some time of democratic experiment (often an unsuccessful one).

True. Again though, Fascism is a popular movement, while Korsgaadianism is an elite-based movement. And while I could see the latter developing into a popular movement, it needs more than just sour economic times - it needs to play off of the fears of the petit-bougouis of allowing the "other" to win.

 

[Glen]

Teg

Damn, too many TLs. I had lost track and was presuming that if Prussia was still relatively small Austria would be dominating Germany.

Steve

Oh, that happens to the best of us, Steve!

 

[Glen]

Interesting update. It certainly appears to have foregone the worst of the OTL treatment of Indians.

Thanks. Yes, we've missed the worst, but it still isn't great, at least for some.

 

[Glen]

But then, they would be dealing with truely counterfactual history

Indeed, indeed....

 

[Glen]

Glen

Good insight into the developments with the western Indian people's in the dominion. Glad that things seem to be going better for them than OTL, although of course those further north suffer as a result.

However in the above section there seems to be a typo? You differentiate between the southern and central bands taking different tacks then mention the central bands twice?

Steve

Thanks, and doh, and thanks!

 

[Glen]

The extension of the parliamentary vote in the United Kingdom developed gradually over the 19th century. The first major step was the extension of the franchise during the Reform movement of the 1830s. However, the majority of men in the United Kingdom still were ineligible to vote. However, for women the situation was even more dire as they were completely barred from the franchise. The rising female suffrage movement in the more progressive United States of America in the 1840s and 1850s sparked some muted calls in the UK for some form of suffrage for women, though they tended to be lost in the greater movement to expand male suffrage. It was only with the crowning of Elizabeth II at the end of the 1850s, and her subsequent patronage of the rights and protections of women that these issues gained any real traction in the British Empire. The Reform Act of 1864 extended further the franchise for men, but also saw widows and spinsters who met age and property requirements gain the franchise. In part to honor 25th anniversary of Elizabeth II's coronation, but also to help lighten the mood in the nation given the financial turmoil of the times, the Reform Act of 1883 not only greatly increased the male franchise so that for the first time the majority of the population could vote, but it also put women on equal footing with men for the franchise.

 

[Glen]

I feel the need to come out from lurking

Good to see you in the light of day!

to say that Austria-Hungary would have no canonical grounds to make the statement that the Chair of St. Peter was empty; Jus exclusivae was never recognized in any sort of canon law, so there is no lawful declaration that can be made stating that the state of Sede Vacante exists. So unless they are setting up their own Churches... actually, either way, I'm doubtful that either of these countries would be able to make this declaration without it being a blatantly obvious power grab. Nor could they do this without there being a fair amount of unrest, especially in Poland as the Catholic clergy would be forced to swear allegiance to a Protestant Emperor.

You are of course correct. They have no real legal basis for their actions, they are just using it as a fig leaf to cover what is indeed a blatant power grab. They are being cagey with regard to setting up their own churches. They are bringing the churches under control for the sake of service to the state, but they aren't formally breaking from the universal and true Catholic Church - just giving it orders in their territories and ignoring the true head of the Church. It's the Big Lie backed up with police state tactics.

With regard to unrest in these nations, there are those who have serious doubts about the moves, but they are using the legal fiction, flimsy as it is, to keep it to themselves. Those who don't are finding their lives difficult. Your point about the Poles is a good one, and as you will see in a later post, the protestant Kaiser has a solution for that.

 

[Glen]

Who says the Austrians care about cannocial law? After all, the Pope doesn't exactly have many divisions, does he?

They don't - but actually, the Pope does has a division or two, as head of the Roman Republic, though he might face a revolution of his own if he used them for enforcement of Church Law.

 

[Glen]

I have no knowledge of Vatican law but I also was surprised by Glen's move here - the idea of an anti-Pope was just so unexpected,

Actually, they are specifically not setting up an anti-pope, but rather claiming the Papacy vacant so they don't have to listen to anyone and can have the Catholic church in their nations under their control, at least de facto but not de jure.

I thought Rome's supremacy of the Catholic church would be undeniable by this point.

Not really. As recently as the 18th century Portugal ignored the pope's commands, and remember in this timeline a Pope was actually killed by a mob, so I wouldn't say it's undeniable.

I won't argue the point, however, though if the end result is a situation where Catholic Churches become national (i.e. not just one anti-Pope but many) I think I'll start to worry about the Catholic Church's hopes of remaining a significant denomination or whether we'll just see it fragment into a hundred little groups rather as Protestantism did...and I say that as a Protestant with no real reason to favour Catholicism.

That is one possible outcome, though I would point out that the Liberal nations are making no such move, and even some of the more Korsgaardian nations may not take as drastic of action as the Big Powers in this regard.

It just seems so...natural for their to be one Catholic Church spanning the world. Even if there is only intended to be one anti-Pope for now,

Isn't one anti-pope, and won't see one - you'll sooner see a more Korsgaardian palatable Pope elevated and the problem resolved than you would them setting up an anti-pope of their own, though now that I think about it....

well...the precedent has been set. What's to stop any other monarch now demanding his Catholic clergy submit to his personal rule? And what is to stop those groups then splitting under internal pressure, or over doctrinal dispute,

Self-same monarch.

or as the result of shifting borders, etc etc etc?

More possible.

I presume, however, citing Chekhov's Gun (tell me to shut up and stop ruining the suspension of disbelief if you want and I'll stop doing this, Glen ) that the picture of Stephansdom in Vienna there was as it is being mooted as a good location for Vatican II.

Naw, it's okay - I think I'm still managing to throw out some surprises, and your ideas are always stimulating as an alternate vision of the future to contrast my own against. A Vatican II type deal would be interesting, now that you mention it....

I wonder, if that does happen, what would become of Vienna city centre? Would the new anti-Pope press for his own extra-sovereign territory?

That DEFINITELY wouldn't happen.

And if does, surely he needs more than just one church to be in any way independent? But if that is the case then much of Vienna's core heartland districts must be ceded and lost to the Emperor of Austria-Hungary. Then again, am I perhaps contradicting my earlier opinions that the new Pope would likely be nothing more than an Austrian puppet with the Emperor as the actual and legal head of the church?

Wouldn't get independent land. Puppethood more likely.

Actually, I'll apologise now. That last paragraph was more than a little bit inspired by the fact that I was on holiday in Vienna this summer and instantly recognised the church, and its cleverly-disguised scaffolding with a canvas picture of the church covering it up (which is why part of the church looks so unnaturally grey). I kinda just wanted to show off Sorry

No need, no need.

Ah good. I wasn't the only one who originally read Glen's post as assuming that the Prussia-Polish were not subjecting their clergy to Austria-Hungary but were establishing their own monarch as head of the church within his own borders. I now suspect Glen indeed meant the Polish clergy submitting to Vienna, but could you clarify which you meant please, Glen?

I did in a latter post, but I can understand the confusion.

 

[Glen]

Ah, Another liberal Pope.

Yep.

Will this be a trend or is this going to be rebutteled by several conservative popes later on?

Depends on the power struggle currently going on between some nations and the Pope.

Prupol is quickly becoming a the conservative military monster I keep forgetting that it is.

Indeed.

Hetalia is screwing with my mind.

My daughter would be pleased; she and her friends have gotten into that show.

And while my Arawok ancestors were some great distance away, I feel a connection to the Plains Indians whenever I read about the 'Indian wars'. Thank God for Dominion Intervention!

As you say, as you say....

 

[teg]

Not sure how I feel about women getting the vote early (from a purely academic standpoint of course), it feels a bit too good to be true. Still that update was very nicely explained once more

My daughter would be pleased; she and her friends have gotten into that show.

Is it bad that I find it disconcerting every time a member of this forum says they have children? I always picture most people on this site as being about my age or below...