Please keep at least one of the two australia french, it would make the situation there a lot more interesting ( and as a french it would be cool that part of australia stay french)
Glen
Moderator
Chuen? Can you explain why you chose the name?
Because all Chinese Dynasties were based around previously formed dynasties from the warring states/spring and autumn period and before. Except for two, and both were foreign Dynasties, but both were also famous dynastic names. Chuen was not one of them, so it struck me as very odd. Its certainly not an impossible name for them to have, but it is unlikely. The Song, Qi, Zhou, Chu, Wei, Zhao, Yan, Shu, Ba, Han, etc. would be better choices. Qi would probably be your best bet for a name going that route, not because of what the word translates to, but due to historical precedent.
Of course, as I said, its not an impossible name so this is just a suggestion in case you wanted to change it.
Ah, scholar, where were you when I was asking for suggestions?!?! Why were all Chinese Dynasties based around those names?
scholar
Banned
I don't know, somewhere not paying attention probably.
It has to do with the legacy of the Zhou Dynasty, the longest lasting Dynasty in history, as well as appealing to ancient heroes that lived during the spring and autumn/warring states period of China. There's more to it than that, the concept of Heaven's Mandate comes from the timeframe as well as the concept of Tianxia. There's also a bit of influence from China's base religion that has to do with heaven. Basically I could write a book listing all the reasons why, so let me just say: "Its complicated"
And feel free to look up all the dynasties pre-Yuan, you'll find they all have their names from before. I mean... just type in "Jin Dynasty" and you'll get at least four dynasties that go by that name.
Glen
Moderator
I don't know, somewhere not paying attention probably.
Well, pay more attention next time!
It has to do with the legacy of the Zhou Dynasty, the longest lasting Dynasty in history, as well as appealing to ancient heroes that lived during the spring and autumn/warring states period of China. There's more to it than that, the concept of Heaven's Mandate comes from the timeframe as well as the concept of Tianxia. There's also a bit of influence from China's base religion that has to do with heaven. Basically I could write a book listing all the reasons why, so let me just say: "Its complicated"
And feel free to look up all the dynasties pre-Yuan, you'll find they all have their names from before. I mean... just type in "Jin Dynasty" and you'll get at least four dynasties that go by that name.
While your point is well taken about many of the classic states lending their names to Chinese Dynasties, it would appear not to be the absolute rule, but rather that there were good reasons to link those dynasties to those states. The Ming do not appear to have derived their name from a state (yes, they may have done so from mythical figures) but I think that there is enough drift and doubt that Chuen becomes a reasonable choice.
Glen
Moderator
But that would be boring...
All noted. I don't think it is likely we'll see French Australias traded for African lands...
Glen
Moderator
Your second for a war of liberation is noted.
I can certainly see how that would be cool for you as a man of France - btw, how do you like this France so far?
Glen
Moderator
The 1860s were dangerous times in Asia for indigenous dynasties. Some feared revolutions and revolts like those that had torn China assunder. Others feared economic and political dominance by Western powers such as what had befallen Japan and Manchurian China. Yet others feared outright invasion and foreign rule, as had happened to India and Greater Annam.
Siam was one such nation. The Siamese had had relatively close and cordial relations with the British for most of the 19th century, but Britain continued to press for freer trade with Siam. The Sepoy Uprising and the subsequent take-over of the Subcontinent by the British Government had given Siam concern about British intentions, concerns that were heightened by Britain's dealings with Imperial Japan. These fears were magnified by the Spanish invasion of neighboring Greater Annam. On the other hand, Britain had slowly warmed to the new democratic government in Southern China, and seemed to be on reasonable relations with them, with the exception of trade dealings and extraterritoriality. In the end, the traditional relation with Britain won the day.
Siam's king, scion of the Chakri Dynasty, was an avid intellectual, yet a devote Buddhist. He saw the new knowledge from the West as essential to his nation's survival. He instituted a number of educational reforms and acquiesced to Western demands for lowering barriers to free trade. Ironically, this long resisted move would lead to an economic boom in Siam. Chakri-ruled Siam would also reach out to the United States of China, entering a number of trade and cultural agreements. The King of Siam also became intrigued by the new Deist Buddhism developing in the USC, and saw much to be admired in its rejection of superstition. While Siamese Buddhists would remain more traditional than the Chinese Deist Buddhism, it adopted many of their reforms which were seen as compatible with traditional Buddhism. Another reform measure inspired by both the Chinese and the British was the liberalization of the role of women in Siamese society. While not as agressively egalitarian as the new USC, the reforms were substantial, and caught the notice and approval of Empress Elizabeth of the British Empire.
Siam was one such nation. The Siamese had had relatively close and cordial relations with the British for most of the 19th century, but Britain continued to press for freer trade with Siam. The Sepoy Uprising and the subsequent take-over of the Subcontinent by the British Government had given Siam concern about British intentions, concerns that were heightened by Britain's dealings with Imperial Japan. These fears were magnified by the Spanish invasion of neighboring Greater Annam. On the other hand, Britain had slowly warmed to the new democratic government in Southern China, and seemed to be on reasonable relations with them, with the exception of trade dealings and extraterritoriality. In the end, the traditional relation with Britain won the day.
Siam's king, scion of the Chakri Dynasty, was an avid intellectual, yet a devote Buddhist. He saw the new knowledge from the West as essential to his nation's survival. He instituted a number of educational reforms and acquiesced to Western demands for lowering barriers to free trade. Ironically, this long resisted move would lead to an economic boom in Siam. Chakri-ruled Siam would also reach out to the United States of China, entering a number of trade and cultural agreements. The King of Siam also became intrigued by the new Deist Buddhism developing in the USC, and saw much to be admired in its rejection of superstition. While Siamese Buddhists would remain more traditional than the Chinese Deist Buddhism, it adopted many of their reforms which were seen as compatible with traditional Buddhism. Another reform measure inspired by both the Chinese and the British was the liberalization of the role of women in Siamese society. While not as agressively egalitarian as the new USC, the reforms were substantial, and caught the notice and approval of Empress Elizabeth of the British Empire.
scholar
Banned
Yes, there are two of them. Even so it is important to mention that in both those cases they borrowed part of their name from the warring states period. So it would not be Chuen, but Da Chuen, or Chuen Zhao which just adds an adjective like "Great Chuen" ("Great Purity"). This shouldn't be a great problem. Even looking at the Ming you will notice that it has "Great" attached to it. Again, this is merely a suggestion. Feel free to ignore this if you feel its necessary.
Nice update with Siam though. Siam is in a group I like to call The Great Three, alongside China and Japan. This is due to both being able to establish themselves as major powers in China during an age where it would have been easy for them to be devoured like so many other states before them, but have succeeded in spite of this. China, while carved into spheres of influence, could never realistically be made into a colony. Japan, Japan is a wonder story which needs no explanation for why I included them.
Maybe just the South Island of New Zealand then?
I like the development with Siam. I always found the nation facinating during this period, and with the Spanish in control of OTL Vietnam, there's even a chance they will keep control over OTL Cambodia and Laos!
I like the development with Siam. I always found the nation facinating during this period, and with the Spanish in control of OTL Vietnam, there's even a chance they will keep control over OTL Cambodia and Laos!
Glen
Moderator
Two of them?
Maybe Da Chuen as a formal name, but commonly known as Chuen?
And I appreciate it. My reticence is more from the fact that we've already put in a fair amount of mentions of the name. I try to avoid retcons unless something is absolutely untenable.
Thank you - in many ways the Siamese are actually following OTL trends, just with a bit of a spin due to different external events. We'll see how long that lasts. Korea is another place we need to update...
Glen
Moderator
Funny
I am glad that you like Siam. There is indeed a chance of those areas developing differently.
Something about "Thai Greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" doesn't quite roll off the tongue so well...
Only joking Glen. Very intriguing. Never reckoned for Siam to be a potential Asian power. Will be very interested to see where this goes, and how Siam will react to the Europeans and their surely inevitable increasing interest on gobbling up Indochina. That Siam is smaller and shared an actual land border with other Indochinese territories will make this even more interesting. At least Japan was always an island. Yes, very interesting...
Glen
Moderator
That's why it would be the Siamese Greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere....
On the other hand, recall that OTL Siam/Thailand remained free, regardless. And being an island when the Europeans have the greater navies, not necessarily the safest thing...
That's why it would be the Siamese Greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere....
On the other hand, recall that OTL Siam/Thailand remained free, regardless. And being an island when the Europeans have the greater navies, not necessarily the safest thing...
In the absence of Japan and China, Siam would naturally rise. And yet I was too focussed in Korea, that I did not see it coming!
Brilliant Glen.
And the Siamese Greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, feels quite natural. Even more so than the Japanese one. They certainly share much more, culturally speaking, with their neighbors than Japan ever did.
It be cool to see Siam grow, as well. Some areas like Northern Sumatra, and Borneo seem natural regions for it to expand towards.