Protect and Survive: A Timeline

Maybe I'll say things already said by others, but I hope I'll be forgiven :)))...The last update was magnificent, I struggle to remember anything in war fiction comparable for intensity and drama with the "Battle of Whitby"

The final part, with the Soviet sailors emerging from the Typhoon, among a British crowd, left me just speechless.

It seems the perfect explanation of the phrase War is hell.

Thank you Jack.

Now, some question-time:

Really a gross method, the one used against the Eshott rogue Fusiliers; Should we have to expect that as a standard for dealing with mutinies?

I'm tryin' to get a clear image of the events in Southern America: Buenos Aires and an unspecified part of Tierra del Fuego were destroyed by some atomic weapons. Is correct to assume that these were Soviet SLBMs? The strike on the Tierra del Fuego province could have been a very very mistargeted missile aimed at the Falklands, because I really can't think of a Royal Navy warhead wasted so, while I can perfectly understand a similar targeting in the context of the USSR paranoid strategy. A related question: if (note, if) the strike aimed at the Falkland Islands failed, Port Stanley is still operational? No contact from the islanders?

You have mentioned a couple of devices delivered to the PRC; Is reasonable to speculate that HK, Macau and Taiwan are gone?
 

Macragge1

Banned
Couple of comments:

1. I understand that the Typhoons can stay submerged for a minimum of 180 days, with supplies for more than that. How long after the Exchange is the Whiby event? Seems strange for the crew to be reduced to that condition.

This is true; the Whitby business is about two months after the Exchange. We don't yet know (as the crew are still en route to Corsham), however, how long the submarine had been on patrol prior to the war, although we can assume given the state they're in that they've been out a long time.

2. I would have thought that at the date of the Exchange the Falkland Islands were more than capable of looking after themselves, and surely Argentina would have had other priorities than occupying those islands? Especially if they had copped a couple of strikes.

The Falklands, if indeed they have been occupied, will have put up a damn good fight. Without any possibility of resupply, however, and the huge morale-killer of not knowing just how badly home is hit, I can't imagine they'd last forever.

I was working on the basis that Argentina had got off without being hit during the Exchange, and that the restored junta may have tried to take the 'Malvinas' in order to assert it's power and distract from increasing problems at home.

Thanks for the questions.
 

Macragge1

Banned
Maybe I'll say things already said by others, but I hope I'll be forgiven :)))...The last update was magnificent, I struggle to remember anything in war fiction comparable for intensity and drama with the "Battle of Whitby"

The final part, with the Soviet sailors emerging from the Typhoon, among a British crowd, left me just speechless.

It seems the perfect explanation of the phrase War is hell.

Thank you Jack.

Thanks a lot.




Really a gross method, the one used against the Eshott rogue Fusiliers; Should we have to expect that as a standard for dealing with mutinies?

It's a fairly harsh method spurred on by the fact that the army units loyal to the civilian authorities are extremely enthusiastic to prove that a) they're on side with the Crown and b) they won't tolerate the mutineers. The fact that Whitelaw has sent the SAS to deal with the mutiny has really shocked the loyalists.

I'm tryin' to get a clear image of the events in Southern America: Buenos Aires and an unspecified part of Tierra del Fuego were destroyed by some atomic weapons. Is correct to assume that these were Soviet SLBMs? The strike on the Tierra del Fuego province could have been a very very mistargeted missile aimed at the Falklands, because I really can't think of a Royal Navy warhead wasted so, while I can perfectly understand a similar targeting in the context of the USSR paranoid strategy. A related question: if (note, if) the strike aimed at the Falkland Islands failed, Port Stanley is still operational? No contact from the islanders?

The strikes on Buenos Aires and the Argentinian naval base at Tierra del Fuego were launched by a British SSBN in response to an attack on a merchant vessel. This ship was trying to regain communications with Port Stanley, which is now believed to be occupied by Argentinian forces - this is the reason for the strikes on the two targets.

You have mentioned a couple of devices delivered to the PRC; Is reasonable to speculate that HK, Macau and Taiwan are gone?

Hong Kong received several near misses (it is unknown whether these devices were Chinese, Soviet or both) and is known to be covered in fallout.

I imagine Macau and Taiwan both bought it at some point during the Exchange.

Thanks a lot for the questions.
 

Sir Chaos

Banned
This is true; the Whitby business is about two months after the Exchange. We don't yet know (as the crew are still en route to Corsham), however, how long the submarine had been on patrol prior to the war, although we can assume given the state they're in that they've been out a long time.

It´s also possible that they were in port just before the exchange, and were sent out to sea as is at the first sign of tactical nuclear use, without full provisions, without a full set of weapons, perhaps with some systems not working, perhaps even without a full crew - anything would be better than losing the boat when its base is hit.
 
I'd agree the gloves are very firmy off and aggressive nations like Aregntina dahn sarf would be getting a very firm kick somewhere painful.
About the Typhoon, just because something is technically supposedly capable of doing something, doesn't mean that it is really capable of it. Plus the crew has launched sveral nukes-and they know Mother Russia is ended-how would you expect them to be?
 
This is true; the Whitby business is about two months after the Exchange. We don't yet know (as the crew are still en route to Corsham), however, how long the submarine had been on patrol prior to the war, although we can assume given the state they're in that they've been out a long time.



The Falklands, if indeed they have been occupied, will have put up a damn good fight. Without any possibility of resupply, however, and the huge morale-killer of not knowing just how badly home is hit, I can't imagine they'd last forever.

I was working on the basis that Argentina had got off without being hit during the Exchange, and that the restored junta may have tried to take the 'Malvinas' in order to assert it's power and distract from increasing problems at home.

Thanks for the questions.

Well, not that bad, at least the torture chambers in the ESMA won't work anymore. At least those.
 
The government hasn´t been very big on reason since the exchange. If they kill their own people that easily, including scarce medical professionals, why should they give a **** about a million or two of Argentinians?

Especially in '84, given it was only in '82 that the Argentines had invaded the Falklands.
 
It's a fairly harsh method spurred on by the fact that the army units loyal to the civilian authorities are extremely enthusiastic to prove that a) they're on side with the Crown and b) they won't tolerate the mutineers. The fact that Whitelaw has sent the SAS to deal with the mutiny has really shocked the loyalists.

Roger that.

The strikes on Buenos Aires and the Argentinian naval base at Tierra del Fuego were launched by a British SSBN in response to an attack on a merchant vessel. This ship was trying to regain communications with Port Stanley, which is now believed to be occupied by Argentinian forces - this is the reason for the strikes on the two targets.

So Whitelaw has given the order to go nuclear on Argentina for a mere gunning? There was any clear confirmation for an albiceleste invasion? That's quite a For all time-esque decision, even if I agree with you that, in a world crippled by God-know-how-many atomic strikes, the old escalation scheme is maybe forever gone. A couple ofrelated question: will we see, in a near update, a report on the state of the Royal Navy? What is the state of the communication with the Commonwealth?

Hong Kong received several near misses (it is unknown whether these devices were Chinese, Soviet or both) and is known to be covered in fallout.

I imagine Macau and Taiwan both bought it at some point during the Exchange.

Thanks a lot for the questions.


Sad for HK. Thank you too for the clarifications :)
 
It's a fairly harsh method spurred on by the fact that the army units loyal to the civilian authorities are extremely enthusiastic to prove that a) they're on side with the Crown and b) they won't tolerate the mutineers. The fact that Whitelaw has sent the SAS to deal with the mutiny has really shocked the loyalists.

The use of gas (mustard gas?) strikes me as quite logical, not just for the reasons stated, but because a) it minimises casualties on the loyalist side (and the security forces must be incredibly overstretched due to a combination of casualties and desertions) and b) it minimises damage to useful equipment like radios, weapons, aircraft etc, which would be hard to repair and close to impossible to replace in the near future.

Come to think of it, once they're on top of immediate problems like food supply, sanitation etc, I could imagine the authorities launching an organised effort to salvage things like electrical components and engine parts to stockpile for future use - who knows how long it'll be before the economy's capable of supporting the manufacture of that kind of stuff? Years at the very least, possibly decades.
 

Macragge1

Banned
So Whitelaw has given the order to go nuclear on Argentina for a mere gunning? There was any clear confirmation for an albiceleste invasion? That's quite a For all time-esque decision, even if I agree with you that, in a world crippled by God-know-how-many atomic strikes, the old escalation scheme is maybe forever gone. A couple ofrelated question: will we see, in a near update, a report on the state of the Royal Navy? What is the state of the communication with the Commonwealth?

The problem Whitelaw has is that Britain is getting by extremely shakily. The worse things get, the more vital it is for him to disguise this weakness with a show of force. A British ship has been attacked in the waters around the Falkland Isles - it is clear that the Argentinians are trying to deny it access to its own territory.

Given that intelligence gathered pre-war (I think I mentioned it in Chapter III or IV) suggested that an invasion fleet was being prepared, CHANTICLEER believes beyond reasonable doubt that the Islands have been invaded (and by extension, at least a few hundred British servicemen killed, wounded or captured). In an ideal world, Whitelaw would try and confirm that this was the case. Unfortunately, he has no satellites or aircraft available. Sending a ship, as well as being time-consuming, poses the risk of losing a vessel that is increasingly valuable every day.

For the same reason, we can not send a Task Force like we did in 1982. Given that we are seemingly at war with Argentina, we cannot do nothing either. It's a horrible situation, but in this world, we have only one option. Britain has been hit with fifty of these things, the world with countless. Atomic weaponry is now a tool of the trade, just as gas was before it, as the gun was before that, and the spear was before that.

If we do nothing, or wait too long as we try to get confirmation, we run the risk (at least in the eyes of men who can barely control their own country in a grey bunker) of appearing weak in the eyes of other opportunist nations.

Thus, the decision was made - not lightly - to deploy two weapons against Argentina; one against the CCC facilities in the capital and the other against the enemy's key naval base.

Thanks for pushing me on why stuff like this happens - it really makes me think about who's doing what and why which is pretty interesting.
 
It would be interesting to know what the status of Brazil is in South America. If this country is unscathed then they could be a major source of help to the northern hemisphere and quite possibly become a superpower this way. The country has the agricultural surface to feed billions if need be. Moreover in this world saving the Amazon would be the last of everyone's worries.
I nevertheless doubt that they have been unscathed and the loss of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paolo would be enough to cripple them for a long time.

The status of South Africa would be rather interesting to know as well, I guess that Jo'burg got a hit and probably Cape Town too. Considering the country position and the fact that they may already have had A bombs in 1984, it is possible that they may have used them against their neighbourgs in Mozambique and Angola. If the country is still intact I expect them to encourage European immigration to their lands in order to tip the demographic balance in favour of the whites.

It will be very interesting to see what comes up following the Swiss aircrew visit. Considering that the only European government with whom the UK has a continous contact is France. An unprecedented cooperation between Britain and France would make massive sense in this hour of great needs. France has the agricultural surface in western France to feed the 60/70 or so millions people left in France and Britain. France's network of nuclear power plants will be available (a lot of plants were done by 1984), so provided that grid connections and the connector with Britain can be reestablished (should take a year) electricity will be there too. Britain has the coal and the oil to restart industrial production, France has her uranium mines in central France. Eire could of course include itself into such a recovery programme along with Switzerland, Italy and Spain. The low countries and Germany are probably gone, but in the long term it would be make sense to resettle in Western Europe as many people from these areas as will be practicle. They are needed to replenish the losses!

What do you think macragge? Obviously that's long term stuff but still.
 

Macragge1

Banned
It would be interesting to know what the status of Brazil is in South America. If this country is unscathed then they could be a major source of help to the northern hemisphere and quite possibly become a superpower this way. The country has the agricultural surface to feed billions if need be. Moreover in this world saving the Amazon would be the last of everyone's worries.
I nevertheless doubt that they have been unscathed and the loss of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paolo would be enough to cripple them for a long time.

Brazil is certainly something of a wildcard, and a place we'll be hearing a lot more from later on. I suppose that we can only hope that enough infrastructure has survived to be able to help, and enough humanity has survived to be willing to help.

The status of South Africa would be rather interesting to know as well, I guess that Jo'burg got a hit and probably Cape Town too. Considering the country position and the fact that they may already have had A bombs in 1984, it is possible that they may have used them against their neighbourgs in Mozambique and Angola. If the country is still intact I expect them to encourage European immigration to their lands in order to tip the demographic balance in favour of the whites.

I daren't discuss what's happening down there, save that there may or may not be a frigate en route to the UK from the former South Africa.

It would be interesting to know what the status of Brazil is in South America. If this country is unscathed then they could be a major source of help to the northern hemisphere and quite possibly become a superpower this way. The country has the agricultural surface to feed billions if need be. Moreover in this world saving the Amazon would be the last of everyone's worries.
I nevertheless doubt that they have been unscathed and the loss of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paolo would be enough to cripple them for a long time.

Brazil is certainly something of a wildcard, and a place we'll be hearing a lot more from later on. I suppose that we can only hope that enough infrastructure has survived to be able to help, and enough humanity has survived to be willing to help.

It will be very interesting to see what comes up following the Swiss aircrew visit. Considering that the only European government with whom the UK has a continous contact is France. An unprecedented cooperation between Britain and France would make massive sense in this hour of great needs. France has the agricultural surface in western France to feed the 60/70 or so millions people left in France and Britain. France's network of nuclear power plants will be available (a lot of plants were done by 1984), so provided that grid connections and the connector with Britain can be reestablished (should take a year) electricity will be there too. Britain has the coal and the oil to restart industrial production, France has her uranium mines in central France. Eire could of course include itself into such a recovery programme along with Switzerland, Italy and Spain. The low countries and Germany are probably gone, but in the long term it would be make sense to resettle in Western Europe as many people from these areas as will be practicle. They are needed to replenish the losses!

What do you think macragge? Obviously that's long term stuff but still.

These are all logical suggestions, but, as you say, they're long term. At the moment, there's problems with individual towns not sharing with each other, so the idea of international co-operation is a little way away what with all the trauma the world has suffered.
 
I've just been thinking...

Assuming the Soviets didn't target nuclear power plants during their attack on the U.S., those power plants that are in areas that escaped nuclear attack (like in Palacios, Texas, for instance) could be a source of power for the surviving areas (kind of ironic, IMO).

In addition, there is a nuclear power plant near Cleveland (I saw it when my mom and me visited my late father, who lived near there until he died) that could be supplying power to Cleveland (you implied that Cleveland survived, so I am going by that assumption. Doesn't matter much to me or my parents, though, in this TL).

This is assuming the Soviets didn't intentionally go after them, of course.

When is your next update? (This timeline is a little more hopeful than Threads, IMO. Though not by much.)

Your last update shows that while humanity is struggling, there is a little compassion left in the world.
 
I can see the Typhoon having been out on patrol for a long time already before the exchange and thus exhausting their supplies.
Also their investigation of former home ports likely exposed them to some radiation.

What baffles me is the beaching (an intact sub is a much better bargaining chip) and most of all the fact that it is flying its flag but nobody is in shape to open a hatch?
 
I don't think radiation would be a serious issue for the sub's crew in the normal course of events - they'd be spending most of their time underwater, and therefore they'd be very well insulated against radiation (going off memory, water has a similar half value thickness to earth, so a submarine would be one of the better places to be in a nuclear war).

I think it's unlikely that the crew we're deliberately aiming to beach their sub, especially in an enemy nation (given a free choice, their best bet woiuld surely be to head for a neutral country), so my guess would be that the submarine was damaged in the fighting - maybe a lucky depth charge, or maybe a near miss from a retaliatory nuclear missile after they started firing theirs off (I'm assumiing that our side would be able to track a missile launch from a submarine with enough accuracy to target a missile, I don't know if that's actually the case or not).

I can't think of a logical reason for the flag flying, but put it down to artistic licence.
 
I don't think radiation would be a serious issue for the sub's crew in the normal course of events - they'd be spending most of their time underwater, and therefore they'd be very well insulated against radiation (going off memory, water has a similar half value thickness to earth, so a submarine would be one of the better places to be in a nuclear war).

Indeed, something that gets mentioned a lot in "On the Beach" as well.
I was thinking about exposure or contamination when exploring their former home base. The Kola Gulf area must be glowing in the dark from hits and breached nuclear fuel storage sites.

Another potential reason for beaching would be a mutiny of sorts, disabling higher qualified crew members.
 

Sir Chaos

Banned
Indeed, something that gets mentioned a lot in "On the Beach" as well.
I was thinking about exposure or contamination when exploring their former home base. The Kola Gulf area must be glowing in the dark from hits and breached nuclear fuel storage sites.

Another potential reason for beaching would be a mutiny of sorts, disabling higher qualified crew members.

They can´t know that there are still working port facilities in Britain, and even if they did, they´d figure that the ports are guarded, and those guards are jumpy enough to fire on any surfacing enemy sub.

So, barring the course of action of just surfacing off the coast and waiting to be sunk, beaching is probably the best bet they have.
 
back to the sub, it'd be likely that its been attacked at some point-more probably by a frigate with a torpedo than a helicopter or aircraft like Nimrod or Orion (or an Atlantic) and has a cracked hull causing some leakage rather than a full catastrophic destruction which it would have had otherwise (nuke depth charge-most of which were based on the B57 bomb with capacity of 5-15kT).

Re South Africa, I believe they had 8 warheads? These were deliverable by Buccaneer and Canberra. c1984 their orbat still included a good half dozen plus of each type, plus around 75 Mirage F1 and Mirage III. They also had over 150 Impala (Macchi 326) for close air support. Angola and Mocambique plus Zimbabwe and all te ANC couldn't get rid of the apartheid regime and its pretty much at its zenith in this period out manouvering everything and anything in the region. I have a feeling that the regime would survive and things would be even more harsh for the black majority-orced labour etc with the justification that its for mans survival...
 

Macragge1

Banned
Assuming the Soviets didn't target nuclear power plants during their attack on the U.S., those power plants that are in areas that escaped nuclear attack (like in Palacios, Texas, for instance) could be a source of power for the surviving areas (kind of ironic, IMO).

In addition, there is a nuclear power plant near Cleveland (I saw it when my mom and me visited my late father, who lived near there until he died) that could be supplying power to Cleveland (you implied that Cleveland survived, so I am going by that assumption. Doesn't matter much to me or my parents, though, in this TL).

This is assuming the Soviets didn't intentionally go after them, of course.

When is your next update? (This timeline is a little more hopeful than Threads, IMO. Though not by much.)

Your last update shows that while humanity is struggling, there is a little compassion left in the world.

Valid points on the American Power Plants - a few will have been goosed, either intentionally or otherwise, but some will remain, as you say.

Next update's gonna be soon.

I can see the Typhoon having been out on patrol for a long time already before the exchange and thus exhausting their supplies.
Also their investigation of former home ports likely exposed them to some radiation.

What baffles me is the beaching (an intact sub is a much better bargaining chip) and most of all the fact that it is flying its flag but nobody is in shape to open a hatch?

I don't think radiation would be a serious issue for the sub's crew in the normal course of events - they'd be spending most of their time underwater, and therefore they'd be very well insulated against radiation (going off memory, water has a similar half value thickness to earth, so a submarine would be one of the better places to be in a nuclear war).

I think it's unlikely that the crew we're deliberately aiming to beach their sub, especially in an enemy nation (given a free choice, their best bet woiuld surely be to head for a neutral country), so my guess would be that the submarine was damaged in the fighting - maybe a lucky depth charge, or maybe a near miss from a retaliatory nuclear missile after they started firing theirs off (I'm assumiing that our side would be able to track a missile launch from a submarine with enough accuracy to target a missile, I don't know if that's actually the case or not).

I can't think of a logical reason for the flag flying, but put it down to artistic licence.

The crew are certainly not in complete control of the vessel; which has been damaged - they have beached it not knowing exactly where they are, and with little hope of mercy; they were just hoping to die in the fresh air, really.

They can´t know that there are still working port facilities in Britain, and even if they did, they´d figure that the ports are guarded, and those guards are jumpy enough to fire on any surfacing enemy sub.

So, barring the course of action of just surfacing off the coast and waiting to be sunk, beaching is probably the best bet they have.

Yeah, this.

back to the sub, it'd be likely that its been attacked at some point-more probably by a frigate with a torpedo than a helicopter or aircraft like Nimrod or Orion (or an Atlantic) and has a cracked hull causing some leakage rather than a full catastrophic destruction which it would have had otherwise (nuke depth charge-most of which were based on the B57 bomb with capacity of 5-15kT).

Re South Africa, I believe they had 8 warheads? These were deliverable by Buccaneer and Canberra. c1984 their orbat still included a good half dozen plus of each type, plus around 75 Mirage F1 and Mirage III. They also had over 150 Impala (Macchi 326) for close air support. Angola and Mocambique plus Zimbabwe and all te ANC couldn't get rid of the apartheid regime and its pretty much at its zenith in this period out manouvering everything and anything in the region. I have a feeling that the regime would survive and things would be even more harsh for the black majority-orced labour etc with the justification that its for mans survival...

Good analysis - we'll hear more about just what's happened with South Africa very soon.
 

Macragge1

Banned
pandsbigdone.jpg


Just a little fucking about with Photoshop to come up with a little title card. I quite like it.
 
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