Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[Glen]

Well Little Rock is Petite Roche. Others I will try to get to you as able.

Dunno whichever ones have become important over the timeline .

IMO urban centres in the ATL that I need names would be:
-Houston
-Beumont
-Dallas/Arlington/Fort Worth
-Shreveport
-Little Rock
-A centre with no OTL analog near the top of the navigable Arkansas river
-Jackson
-Memphis
-A new city on the mississippi near the american border.
-Biloxi (would have the same root, but probably butchered from the original Bilocci in a different manner)
-Wherever the major Charleton Urban centre turns up
-Birmingham, Alabama
-Atlanta (on the border of Georgia and Indiana here)
-An analogless centre near the mouth of the Apalachicola-Chattahoochee system (since Tallahassee is butterflied away)
-Tampa
-Jacksonville

 

[Glen]

I din't mean to nitpick on the border, but like alot of AHer's I have an strange aversion to staight lines. As for Texas, I have always had the impression that the Rio Grande River made a good border. Thats just my opinion anyway.

Straight lines must not be overused, I agree. On the other hand, if they are going to be used anywhere, that is certainly one of the places. Note that the Rio Grande is used in part for the border, just as it is used in part IOTL. The area between TTL's Texas Border and OTL's was much in dispute IOTL, and with the earlier POD it made sense to me that it wouldn't be a gimme that it would go to the Texans.

And Glen, the list of the founders was VERY good. I certainly thought it was interesting to see the fates of several people in this TL... James K. Polk of Carleton still suprises me somewhat.

THANKS!!! Well, it's James Polk, with the K being in question . His family were from south of the Virginia and as far as I can discern relatively apolitical, so they are likely to just keep on keeping on much as they did OTL, but in the BSA. Same thing for Andrew Johnson's brother from an alternate timeline mother...

 

[Nugax]

Oh also I used Buff and Gold as the colours for the DSA, as those are colours of Georgia and Louisinia (respectively) and I think it would compliment the blues of the USA quite well.

 

[Umbric Man]

If it helps, you might call Atlanta 'Whitehall' in this world:

http://files.usgwarchives.net/ga/fulton/bios/humphrie331bs.txt

When Terminus/Marthasville is ready to change its name for good they may claim they took the name from the old Whitehall Tavern, AKA the local post office (which in OTL they ALSO renamed 'Atlanta' to make the ATL city name official in government records!), than the Atlantic-Pacific Railroad due to being in a more British influenced area in this TL.

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Tampa was named after Tampa Bay. I suggest Hillsborough in this world, due to Hillsborough Bay being A) next to the main urban center (IE, Tampa), B) Hillsborough Bay being right next to Tampa Bay proper C) again, in a more British-influenced region.

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Perhaps call Jackson Wellington after the Duke of Wellington, since both men won significant 1815 victories?

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Biloxi is already an Anglicization from 1763 on, so you needn't change that. Same for Pensacola, just in case (from Spanish Panzacola).

Birmingham is already named after the English city.

Natchez was known as Panmure from 1763-1783, and Baton Rogue as New Richmond.

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Jacksonville might simply stay as 'Cowford', or you might name it after another British Napoleonic hero (again, Wellington?)

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Huntsville was once known as Twickenham after the English city, you can keep that name here.

 

[Nugax]

The sorting out of the modern Tampa bay names out of the mash of Tampa, Hillsboro, and Spirito Santo didn't happen till after the PoD.

Also since most of the prior names you gave are also post-PoD, they are pretty irrelevent and Glen can call them whatever he likes since the different ARW will have very much stirred the pot. Birmingham for example is deep in Indiana!

 

[thekingsguard]

Straight lines must not be overused, I agree. On the other hand, if they are going to be used anywhere, that is certainly one of the places. Note that the Rio Grande is used in part for the border, just as it is used in part IOTL. The area between TTL's Texas Border and OTL's was much in dispute IOTL, and with the earlier POD it made sense to me that it wouldn't be a gimme that it would go to the Texans.



THANKS!!! Well, it's James Polk, with the K being in question . His family were from south of the Virginia and as far as I can discern relatively apolitical, so they are likely to just keep on keeping on much as they did OTL, but in the BSA. Same thing for Andrew Johnson's brother from an alternate timeline mother...

Now the borders make more sense. I still harbor unease at all those straight lines though ;-)

It costs me one of my favorite Presidents, but I am looking foreward to seeing what James Polk and the rest does in this world. As for Andrew Johnson, the BSA can have him fo all I care.

I just can't wait to see what other friendly faces pop up. An obligitory Theodore Roosevelt I hope?

And it just occured to me, what will happen to the film industry?

 

[Umbric Man]

The sorting out of the modern Tampa bay names out of the mash of Tampa, Hillsboro, and Spirito Santo didn't happen till after the PoD.

Also since most of the prior names you gave are also post-PoD, they are pretty irrelevent and Glen can call them whatever he likes since the different ARW will have very much stirred the pot. Birmingham for example is deep in Indiana!

Apologies! - I've worked on my own British derived names from studying North American toponymy, so I tend to throw them out automatically. I tend to be the butterfly-less guy, too.

 

[Glen]

Oh also I used Buff and Gold as the colours for the DSA, as those are colours of Georgia and Louisinia (respectively) and I think it would compliment the blues of the USA quite well.

The visual effect is quite good!

 

[Glen]

If it helps, you might call Atlanta 'Whitehall' in this world:

http://files.usgwarchives.net/ga/fulton/bios/humphrie331bs.txt

When Terminus/Marthasville is ready to change its name for good they may claim they took the name from the old Whitehall Tavern, AKA the local post office (which in OTL they ALSO renamed 'Atlanta' to make the ATL city name official in government records!), than the Atlantic-Pacific Railroad due to being in a more British influenced area in this TL.

Nice thoughts, but I suspect not. I think 'Crossing' or 'Peachtree' or 'Pitchtree' or even 'Nelson' might be more likely.

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Tampa was named after Tampa Bay. I suggest Hillsborough in this world, due to Hillsborough Bay being A) next to the main urban center (IE, Tampa), B) Hillsborough Bay being right next to Tampa Bay proper C) again, in a more British-influenced region.

The Tampa name is surprisingly old (if obscure) in derivation, but Hillsborough is very appropriate for and would have been applied to the area, and not likely to change as you note with the maintenence of the British presence.

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Perhaps call Jackson Wellington after the Duke of Wellington, since both men won significant 1815 victories?

Perhaps, perhaps...

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Biloxi is already an Anglicization from 1763 on, so you needn't change that. Same for Pensacola, just in case (from Spanish Panzacola).

Yep.

Birmingham is already named after the English city.

The site of OTL Birmingham is in TTL's Indiana, and was founded there based on the crossing of two rail lines in the latter half of the 19th century. So Birmingham that we know is unlikely - on the otherhand, there are plenty of other cities that could end up being called Birmingham...

Natchez was known as Panmure from 1763-1783, and Baton Rogue as New Richmond.

Those are good thoughts, and they could have gone that way, but I think Baton Rouge will definitely survive as a name, less sure on Natchez. Of note, both the names you suggest seem to be more of forts in those areas than the towns themselves - not that plenty of towns didn't inherit their names from forts...

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Jacksonville might simply stay as 'Cowford', or you might name it after another British Napoleonic hero (again, Wellington?)

Cowford is a possible, though I really don't like it. Wellington is a thought, certainly....

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Huntsville was once known as Twickenham after the English city, you can keep that name here.[/QUOTE]

That would be a nice one, but neither name is likely given that neither Hunt nor Pope are likely to arrive there given the changes in the timeline.

So I'm good with Biloxi, Pensacola, and Hillsborough. The rest need to be reviewed further.

Good thoughts, though, keep 'em coming.

 

[Glen]

The sorting out of the modern Tampa bay names out of the mash of Tampa, Hillsboro, and Spirito Santo didn't happen till after the PoD.

Also since most of the prior names you gave are also post-PoD, they are pretty irrelevent and Glen can call them whatever he likes since the different ARW will have very much stirred the pot. Birmingham for example is deep in Indiana!

All true, but he gave me some useful suggestions and some ideas to mull over.

 

[Glen]

Now the borders make more sense. I still harbor unease at all those straight lines though ;-)

I understand, and I appreciate your understanding.

It costs me one of my favorite Presidents, but I am looking foreward to seeing what James Polk and the rest does in this world. As for Andrew Johnson, the BSA can have him fo all I care.

Fair enough. Remember that these are relatives of the OTL figures, not the same people.

I just can't wait to see what other friendly faces pop up. An obligitory Theodore Roosevelt I hope?

Sadly, no. But his inventor ancestor has already made an appearance, and more Roosevelt appearances are always possible...

And it just occured to me, what will happen to the film industry?

Indeed! But that is a story for several, several decades from now...

 

[Glen]

Some historians cite the establishment of a permanent Russian presence on Sakhalin by 1812 as the beginning of the end for Seclusion and the Shogunate in Japan. Though the power of the Shoguns would continue for decades to come, this failure of the 1808 declaration of Ezochi, Sakhalin, and the Kuriles as sovereign territory of Japan was seen by many intriguers as a sign of weakness. Moves by the Shogunate to strengthen its hold on Ezochi through direct rule may have backfired, because the displaced Matsumae clan became more responsive to Russian influence and is believed by many historians to be behind the smuggling that began in Ezochi at that time, though the only people caught at the activity were Ainu. Continual rebuffing of Russian overtures for trade contributed to Russian interest in smuggling as a way to gain Japanese goods. By 1840, serriptitious trade with the Russians and perceived weakness of the Shogunate combined to lead to the Ezochi Revolution. Fueled mostly by Russian weapons, the rebellion did well at first, but was doomed to failure eventually given the disproportionate numbers involved. However, a direct entreaty by the Matsumae to the Russian Empire was used as a diplomatic excuse to send a fleet to Edo. Under threat of the more advanced weapons of the Russian navy, the Shogun was forced to open Japan to foreign (Russian) trade and to acknowledge the autonomy of Ezochi with Russia as guarantor, though Ezochi officially still remained part of the Japanese nation. The days of the Shogonate at that point were clearly numbered.

The Ainu People of Ezochi

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Read through this TL, Glen, and I am impressed.

Will the Ainu do much better TTL?

 

[Eurofed]

Fair points, though I thought he was more referring to the amount of mixing rather than the reasons for mixing.

Exactly.

Regarding taking land from Mexico, there is no need for such expansion as the next tier of mexican states is a) empty of known resources and b) full of mexicans. Plus without the slave plantation economy there is much less drive for rabid expansion. The British aren't going to sign off on a war of conquest with an important trade partner like mexico, particularly if there is a plan for a canal - its so much cheaper to get the white dominion on board in other ways. If people clamour for land London will just tell them to piss off to Australia or California and not make trouble with an important market - its not like the US, where Mexico was the only possible expansion vector.

Well northern Mexico has some important natural resources which were relevant from a 19th century PoV, such as precious metal ores, and it was not full of Mexicans in the mid-late 19th century. While it was not as empty as the OTL Mexican Cession, it was almost so, the bulk of Mexican population was clustered in southern Mexico, this is before the Maquiladores brought a lot of internal immigration to the northern states. If they grab the northern states in a war of conquest, they can easily take the land for a canal, too, in the same peace deal. And while Mexico may be a significant trade partner, it cannot be as important as you make it sound. And they can always put a puppet regime in charge of defeated Mexico and keep trading with it at even more favorable conditions after a victorious war, it's not like the USA have a border with Mexico and can send support to Mexican rebels through it, unlike the OTL French Intervention. I would not overemphasize the supposed tendency of the 19th century British Empire to trade-minded pacifism, a colonial war of conquest or subjugation was quite possible for the BE in the right conditions, see the Boer War and the Opium Wars. I won't say it must necessarily happen, they can easily be driven to avoid a war with Mexico out of concerns like fear of a USA military reaction, but it's not as preposterous as you put it.

 

[Glen]

Read through this TL, Glen, and I am impressed.

Will the Ainu do much better TTL?

Time will tell...

 

[Glen]

Exactly.



Well northern Mexico has some important natural resources which were relevant from a 19th century PoV, such as precious metal ores, and it was not full of Mexicans in the mid-late 19th century. While it was not as empty as the OTL Mexican Cession, it was almost so, the bulk of Mexican population was clustered in southern Mexico, this is before the Maquiladores brought a lot of internal immigration to the northern states. If they grab the northern states in a war of conquest, they can easily take the land for a canal, too, in the same peace deal. And while Mexico may be a significant trade partner, it cannot be as important as you make it sound. And they can always put a puppet regime in charge of defeated Mexico and keep trading with it at even more favorable conditions after a victorious war, it's not like the USA have a border with Mexico and can send support to Mexican rebels through it, unlike the OTL French Intervention. I would not overemphasize the supposed tendency of the 19th century British Empire to trade-minded pacifism, a colonial war of conquest or subjugation was quite possible for the BE in the right conditions, see the Boer War and the Opium Wars. I won't say it must necessarily happen, they can easily be driven to avoid a war with Mexico out of concerns like fear of a USA military reaction, but it's not as preposterous as you put it.

The northeastern states of Mexico have a fairly decent population, though you are correct about the Northwestern states.

However, there is nowhere near the border that would be worth annexing for the purpose of a canal - they'd basically have to take half of TTL's Mexico to get that far!

At least for the near future, I see the DSA/Mexican Border as settling down.

 

[Eurofed]

The northeastern states of Mexico have a fairly decent population, though you are correct about the Northwestern states.

However, there is nowhere near the border that would be worth annexing for the purpose of a canal - they'd basically have to take half of TTL's Mexico to get that far!

At least for the near future, I see the DSA/Mexican Border as settling down.

I was not thinking of one contiguous annexation, rather of getting two separate blocks, northern Mexico and southern Central America.

 

[DuQuense]

The British Government to commit to a trans-continental railroad to connect the Pacific Coast of California with the Dominion.

OTL the railroad was planned to go to San Deigo. However a combination of Bribery & other Chicanery changed the terminus to Los Angeles. ITTL I expect the Terminus to remain San Diego.
?Will the US TC be Chicago -- Portland or Chicago -- Seattle?

And it just occurred to me, what will happen to the film industry?

With the Railroad going to SD instead of LA, LA will remain a much smaller desert city. However the Crystal clear skies and ocean climate that attracted the Film Industry OTL will remain.

If the Film Industry ends up here again, there will be one major Butterfly.
OTL Britain spent millions of pounds world wide, promoting British English during the period 1950~1990.
They abandoned the effort in the 90's, unable to compete with American English being spread by Movies and TV.
?Whe have to wonder what the Standard Accents will be in the US and DBA?

The DBA controls the mouth of the Colorado. [need name for British City at Mouth]
?Wonder how this will affect the Grand Canyon? ?Will whe get a Alt Hoover Dam, or will whe get the proposed Grand Canyon Dam?

Given that the Antilles are part of the DBA, ?will the DBA develop a Navy, Sooner/Larger than Canada OTL?.

 

[GeneralInTheShell]

I've always wanted to see a TL were the Russians opened Japan .... had been kind of planning to do that in my TL, but maybe I'll have the British or possibly the French do it.

 

[Nugax]

The DBA controls the mouth of the Colorado. [need name for British City at Mouth]
?Wonder how this will affect the Grand Canyon? ?Will whe get a Alt Hoover Dam, or will whe get the proposed Grand Canyon Dam?

Why, there is absolutely nothing there at the mouth of the Colorado. The whole upper bend of the gulf of california is desert shithole, and the OTL US didn't take it from Mexico for very good reasons.

As mentioned earlier in the thread LA will also be a smaller city due to its OTL water sources being in US territory here. This is also a problem for the Colorado - how can the Dominion propose any projects when the Americans control the upstream, and 90% of the water originates in American territory?