The Anglo/American - Nazi War

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Just a thought but how are the Allies finding the Italian population in Sicily etc, has the years of brain washing propaganda made them sullen and resentfull, or are they more balanced in the year or so they have been under allied ocupation ?

I bet italy isn't as bad as the conquered "allies" since it was never under German occupation and thus the Nazis never had the chance to institute their own brand of indoctrination there.
 
CalBear has stated recently that "the Italians have significantly fewer by percentage than most of the other, later "allies" to the Reich thanks to Italy's true junior partner status (not that Italy thought it was junior at the time) and the movement of much of the Italian Army back to the peninsula in reaction to the Allied Invasion of Sicily."


You're quibbling over percentages. Whether Italy "only" has 250,000 troops in immediate proximity to SS "minders" instead of 500,000 troops makes no real difference. Those troops are nothing more than hostages whose deaths will come rapidly after Italy switches sides.

Italy will have to pick its moment carefully...
You're also ignoring Germany's ability to "punish" Italian cities and the people living in them once Italy switches sides.

With the sinking of the Mount Hood off the invasion beaches, we've already seen the capabilities of Germany's latest SSMs. When the time comes, those missiles will be armed with nerve gasses and the killing will really begin.

The Allie's air forces will be focused almost solely on protecting their armed forces and the people of Britain. That focus, plus basing/range issues, will mean that little if anything will be available to protect Italian cities. The fact that a smaller percentage of Italian troops are within the clutches of the SS will mean nothing when Italian civilians are murdered in the hundreds of thousands by German SSMs carrying sarin or tabun.

I'd like to see...
Wishful thinking hasn't been even a small part of this time line yet. CalBear has faced the awful realities with little dancing.

(when it eventually happens)
It will happen and it will most likely happen a few hours before Germany's defeat. It will be "early" enough gain a few brownie points and "late" enough to avoid death from the skies, nothing more.

... Old Benito to perish heroically...
If Benito is truly heroic, he'll accept the possibility of an Allied noose with his name on it in order to shield Italy's people from the certainty of German nerve gasses.

... perhaps by killing the Commander of SS Forces in Italy at a state dinner or some such...
How romantic.

Thankfully, there's been little romance in this time line and that's one of the reasons why it's been so good.

... save Mother Italy before it is too late.
Saving Italy means avoiding German SSM launches.

Aside from the Sicily and False Peak invasions, the Allies aren't interested in fighting on Italian soil. France is only seeing fighting because the Allies had to land somewhere in order to drive into Germany and even then the Allies selected the shortest route. There's no slow slog up the Italian peninsular in this war and no risk of major ground fighting within Italy because the Allies are going straight for Germany's throat with very few side trips.

Italy can hunker down, wait for Germany to be smashed, and surrender a few hours ahead of what's left of the Nazi government. She needn't face the certainty of nerve gas tipped German SSMs by surrendering or switching sides too early in some allegedly redemptive and foolishly romantic gesture.

CalBear has written many times that this time line is a faithful examination of the consequences of the Nazi's acknowledged plans in the even of a German victory in WW2. While those plans were wholly disturbing in their scope, depravity, and insanity, CalBear has been intellectually honest enough to face them squarely and reveal them to his readers. "Watering down" the consequences of a Nazi "New Order" isn't a well meaning attempt to limit the horrors but is rather a rejection of what this time line is all about.

The Germany in this time line has the means and the Germany facing defeat has the insane motives to significantly hurt perceived traitors and even bystanders. There's a horrific gotterdammerung waiting in the wings here.

Germany's leaders and her military in the form of the SS will definitely be operating under a Use It Or Lose It policy. Facing defeat, personal death, and the death of their ideology, they will launch anything and everything they have regardless of any sane political or military goals. The only "goal" will be to take as many other people with them in death. The entire WMD spectrum, with the exception of nuclear detonations, will be on display. Chemicals, gasses, biological agents, and even "dirty" bombs are going to be used and will be used across Europe with no regard for concepts like "friends", "foes", "neutrals", or "borders".

We're going to have our collective noses rubbed in it so thoroughly and so accurately that anyone here who even toys with the idea of Nazi "reform" - how you doing, Eurofed? - will be directed to this thread in order that the scales fall from their eyes.

Park your romance and wishful thinking at the door, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
 
Agree with everything Don Lardo said, but I will say that we shouldn’t overestimate Mussolini’s regard for the Italian population v 20 years worth of personal humiliation and resentment. The Fascist government by this time could be so riddled with (prudently hidden) anti-German feeling that the prospect of Germans SSMs might not seem that daunting. Particularly if they can cut a deal with the allies to save their own regime. So there's every chance Mussolini and his gang of crooks would be quite happy to see Rome burn

As for what you said about the prospects for Nazi reform. You're 100% right, the Nazi’s as a group were batshit insane and anyone who wants to falsely sanitize them to engage in ideologically fueled Axis-wank/Britain, Russia and Poland-screw should be called on it.
 
Agree with everything Don Lardo said, but I will say that we shouldn’t overestimate Mussolini’s regard for the Italian population v 20 years worth of personal humiliation and resentment. The Fascist government by this time could be so riddled with (prudently hidden) anti-German feeling that the prospect of Germans SSMs might not seem that daunting. Particularly if they can cut a deal with the allies to save their own regime. So there's every chance Mussolini and his gang of crooks would be quite happy to see Rome burn

As for what you said about the prospects for Nazi reform. You're 100% right, the Nazi’s as a group were batshit insane and anyone who wants to falsely sanitize them to engage in ideologically fueled Axis-wank/Britain, Russia and Poland-screw should be called on it.

Well you see, whilst the Nazis may have been evil, they were pursuing the same noble objective of European intergration that charming guys like Napoleon and Kaiser Bill were after, and as usual the nasty imperialist Brits set Europeans against each other to destroy one of the only forces that could have ever possibly took on the hated Yanquies. They would have obviously reformed if they had won, after all their "crimes" were obviously the fault of British provocation
 
Well you see, whilst the Nazis may have been evil, they were pursuing the same noble objective of European intergration that charming guys like Napoleon and Kaiser Bill were after, and as usual the nasty imperialist Brits set Europeans against each other to destroy one of the only forces that could have ever possibly took on the hated Yanquies. They would have obviously reformed if they had won, after all their "crimes" were obviously the fault of British provocation

That’s is basically what Eurofed actually said, when you strip away all the layers.

Well a TL evolving a hegemonic Kaiser Bill or non-Nazi Germany wouldn’t be objectionable, but Eurofed picks the Axis, comes up with contorted leaps of logic to hand-wave the Nazi’s only 100% consist feature (I.E batshit homicidal insanity). Then presents to outcome as a bit messy but compared to OTL almost a tie. As for Napoleon, he was a far better ruler than some of his peers...

In other Nazi victory TL‘s; such as CalBear’s. Nazi Europe is presented has the horrific dytopia it invariably would be (in fact I think CalBear was a bit optimistic). In Eurofed’s case Nazi Europe is presented as being only slightly dysfunctional in some areas but generally a good place to live. It is presented in fact as a somewhat desirable outcome.

That of course flies in the face of any factual analysis of Nazi rule and the composition of it’s entire leadership, party structure, ideology, mentally, diplomatic & economic acumen. This is either a result of Eurofed’s own ideological sympathies or an impressively elaborate display of trolling.
 
That’s is basically what Eurofed actually said, when you strip away all the layers.

Well a TL evolving a hegemonic Kaiser Bill or non-Nazi Germany wouldn’t be objectionable, but Eurofed picks the Axis, comes up with contorted leaps of logic to hand-wave the Nazi’s only 100% consist feature (I.E batshit homicidal insanity). Then presents to outcome as a bit messy but compared to OTL almost a tie. As for Napoleon, he was a far better ruler than some of his peers...

In other Nazi victory TL‘s; such as CalBear’s. Nazi Europe is presented has the horrific dytopia it invariably would be (in fact I think CalBear was a bit optimistic). In Eurofed’s case Nazi Europe is presented as being only slightly dysfunctional in some areas but generally a good place to live. It is presented in fact as a somewhat desirable outcome.

That of course flies in the face of any factual analysis of Nazi rule and the composition of it’s entire leadership, party structure, ideology, mentally, diplomatic & economic acumen. This is either a result of Eurofed’s own ideological sympathies or an impressively elaborate display of trolling.

I'm curious as to what Eurofed have said (might've missed a post or something)... also, what kind of WMDs does the Nazis have ITTL? And in what quantity?

Marc A
 
...When the time comes, those missiles will be armed with nerve gasses and the killing will really begin.

The Allie's air forces will be focused almost solely on protecting their armed forces and the people of Britain. That focus, plus basing/range issues, will mean that little if anything will be available to protect Italian cities. The fact that a smaller percentage of Italian troops are within the clutches of the SS will mean nothing when Italian civilians are murdered in the hundreds of thousands by German SSMs carrying sarin or tabun.

It will happen and it will most likely happen a few hours before Germany's defeat. It will be "early" enough gain a few brownie points and "late" enough to avoid death from the skies, nothing more.

There's no slow slog up the Italian peninsular in this war and no risk of major ground fighting within Italy because the Allies are going straight for Germany's throat with very few side trips.

CalBear has written many times that this time line is a faithful examination of the consequences of the Nazi's acknowledged plans in the even of a German victory in WW2. While those plans were wholly disturbing in their scope, depravity, and insanity, CalBear has been intellectually honest enough to face them squarely and reveal them to his readers.

We're going to have our collective noses rubbed in it so thoroughly and so accurately that anyone here who even toys with the idea of Nazi "reform" - how you doing, Eurofed? - will be directed to this thread in order that the scales fall from their eyes.

Park your romance and wishful thinking at the door, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

So are your statements of what is going to happen based on supposition or insider knowledge?

Hero of Canton
 
So are your statements of what is going to happen based on supposition or insider knowledge?


More like an educated guess rather than wishful thinking.

CalBear stated his ground rules for this time line very plainly in the first post: The time line would examine Germany's plans for a post-WW2 Europe. Calbear has repeated those ground rules several times throughout the thread and hasn't shied away from any of the unsavory aspects of Germany's plan either.

I'm taking CalBear at his word while extrapolating from the events he has presented. You and a few others, all with good intentions, are diluting the stated premise of this time line in a well meaning attempt to lessen the horrors to come.

You should note that, aside from the issue of German nuclear weapons, CalBear has not pulled any of his punches. He's shown Germany's New Order hell in Europe unflinchingly and honestly, so we shouldn't assume that some miracle will occur to significantly lessen the horror.

Seeing as your reply ignored the counterpoints I made regarding your earlier hopeful statements, I note them again.

The fact that, when compared to the other national armies in occupied Europe, a smaller percentage of Italy's armed forces are directly under the thumb of the SS does not obviate the fact that hundreds of thousands of Italian soldiers, sailors, and airmen are still at risk. A quarter of a million, for example, is less than a half a million, but the murder of the latter is just as horrific as the murder of the former.

Italy's civilian population is just as precarious position as the armed forces mentioned above. Italy's own air defenses have been savaged by the Allied air forces and, when the Nazi gotterdammerung occurs, the same Luftwaffe which had been somewhat defending Italy up until that point will become a deadly enemy. What's more, German SSMs, which even the Allies with the superior technology have had trouble countering, will face little if any in the way of Italian defenses.

An Italy which switches sides too soon and, as I've already written, "too soon" could be as little as a day, won't be able to defend her population from retaliation by Germany and the Allies won't be able to do so either.

One final point, I'm not "looking forward" to the hundreds of thousands or millions of deaths that will accompany Germany's eventual defeat. I'm merely resigned to the fact that they will occur.
 
I'm curious as to what Eurofed have said (might've missed a post or something)... also, what kind of WMDs does the Nazis have ITTL? And in what quantity?

Marc A

I think there was a thread a while ago exploring science where the Nazis won, the slavic untermensch were defeated and the white dominions were of course incorporated into the US. The Nazis put all their pseudo-science Deutsche Physik bollocks behind them, even though it had just "won them the war", in their eyes at least, and Nazi disregard for petty morality and ethics meant that genetic sciences were decades ahead of OTL, despite the fact that many capable scientists would have been killed, there would have probably been a distinct lack of investment, and that many senior Nazis were into all kinds of unscientific bullshit

 
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I think there was a thread a while ago exploring science where the Nazis won, the slavic untermensch were defeated and the white dominions were of course incorporated into the US. The Nazis put all their pseudo-science Deutsche Physik bollocks behind them, even though it had just "won them the war", in their eyes at least, and Nazi disregard for petty morality and ethics meant that genetic sciences were decades ahead of OTL, despite the fact that many capable scientists would have been killed, there would have probably been a distinct lack of investment, and that many senior Nazis were into all kinds of unscientific bullshit


I remember that one, it was ASB, there were assumptions that technology would be developed in the 50's that was somehow decades ahead of early 21st century technology. I dunno where such logic came from. Simply allowing uninhibited human testing does not guarantee drastically faster results.
 
I have always wondered this did the nazis when they decided to restart hostilities actually have any war aims or goals or just want to attack America in general
 

CalBear

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Monthly Donor
I have always wondered this did the nazis when they decided to restart hostilities actually have any war aims or goals or just want to attack America in general

The Reichs attack is a mystery to historians ITTL. We know that it was the result of a fit of rage when Gobbels eldest son was killed while part of a U-boat crew.
 
Seeing as your reply ignored the counterpoints I made regarding your earlier hopeful statements, I note them again.

Unnecessary, but thanks for the recap. In-no-way was I trying to "lessen the horrors", but rather engaging in what Alternate Historians love to do..."What-ifing". Bring on the Nazi horrors, after years to teaching High School students about "The Nazi Holocaust" (with the invaluable assistance of my local Bene Brith chapter) I am very aware of how much worse things could have gotten if the Nazi's had won WWII. (Which in essence is what happened ITTL. I consider everything after the St. Patrick's Day Attack to be WWIII.)

What I was trying to do was inject another "What-if" into this uber-scenario. As a true "Heinz-57" type of guy who has both Italian Catholic and Spanish Jew ancestors it is special area of interest to me.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Hero of Canton
 
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One thing to keep in mind is this - what do the Italians think will happen? Consider that in OTL, the Italians did not get word to their troops in Greece before the Germans took control when they surrendered to the Allies, and only barely got word to the fleet. What's to say similar circumstances don't present themselves ITTL, along with missile-launched terror raids?
 
One thing to keep in mind is this - what do the Italians think will happen? Consider that in OTL, the Italians did not get word to their troops in Greece before the Germans took control when they surrendered to the Allies, and only barely got word to the fleet. What's to say similar circumstances don't present themselves ITTL, along with missile-launched terror raids?

A very good point. At this point ITTL could the Italian leadership still have any delusions as to the fighting capabilities of their armed forces compared to the Reich Waffen SS? If they still believe that their best units are "at least as good" then that might make defection more likely, if not then less likely. They will most likely be disappointed.

As Don Lardo pointed out (and I concur) it is vitally important for the Italian leadership to pick their moment to switch sides. I imagine this would be a matter of supreme importance to Il Duce and the Holy Father.

CalBear, do the Nazi's allow the Pope to leave Italy?

Hero of Canton
 
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Eurofed

Banned
That’s is basically what Eurofed actually said, when you strip away all the layers.

That's what Eurofed basically says about the victory of Napoleon or Kaiser Bill, not Hitler or Stalin.

Well a TL evolving a hegemonic Kaiser Bill or non-Nazi Germany wouldn’t be objectionable, but Eurofed picks the Axis, comes up with contorted leaps of logic to hand-wave the Nazi’s only 100% consist feature (I.E batshit homicidal insanity).

That's a gross distortion of what I've written. In my Axis victory TL, Nazi genocidal drives get fulfilled to the hilt. As a matter of fact, the Lebensraum gets expanded to the Arab world. I just assumed that they would soon become somewhat smart killers (i.e. they don't kill the Slav/Arab slaves till they have the Aryan settlers to replace them), out of sheer economic necessity.

The TL does not whitewash victorious Nazism by stripping away their genocidal urges, although over time they become much more the expression of imperialist ruthlessness carried to far-end extremes (i.e. we murder you to steal your land and resources for all time, dead people don't rebel or come back to reconquer what they lost) and much less the expression of the racist batshit insanity that drove the genocide of the Jews (i.e. we murder you because we think you are talking rabid dogs).

It is true that ITTL other batshit insane aspects of Nazifascism (e.g. the pseudoscience) get discarded over time, but they were relatively peripheral to the ideology and the ruling circles of the regime, and much less important to both than the Lebensraum.

Then presents to outcome as a bit messy but compared to OTL almost a tie.

That's the product of my historical observation that over time, totalitarian regimes tend to mellow, and the North Koreas seem to be the exception, not the rule, and my reasoning that the Nazi would have had no really valid reason to be radically different. I mean, Maoism had doses of batshit insanity wholly comparable to Nazism (ask Pol Pot), yet its main expression has managed to evolve into a fairly sensible and relatively "soft" version of authoritarianism.

I have applied the same standard to my TL's fascist Europe. The genocidal urges get more or less fulfilled, but they were never aimed to "Aryan" Western Europe (unless you happen to be saddled with a major genetic disorder or incurable major disability, then your survival chances in TTL Europe approach zero, until biotechnologies develop enough to be a feasible alternative).

Over time, the world is indeed left to deal with a superpower that may be sane enough to heed MAD constraints throughout Cold War and in the end mellow enough to give up direct colonial control of Africa and western Asia and allow some serious detente, but built its cities over the mass graves of European, North African, and Middle Eastern Jews, Slavs, and Arabs, and is unrepentant about it. And there is not much that the rest of the world may do about it, since (post-)fascist Europe is a frigging nuclear superpower. In this regard, the evil guys won.

Apart from that, ITTL North America and Oceania basically achieve a tie with OTL, Latin America does rather better, India achieves a tie, Africa is somewhat worse than OTL but basically the usual screw-up in the end (since the Nazi don't get to enact Lebensraum there, it would have been hard even for them to make things much worse than OTL after they pull out, although they were terribly harsh slavemasters while they stay), China moderately worse (the Japanese were very harsh slavemasters but it is hard even for them to make things much worse than Mao, and eventually they pull out, so China has a chance to recover, but not yet to OTL levels), SE Asia rather worse, Western Europe and Japan may or may not be a basic tie with OTL depending on what you look at and value more, Eastern Europe and the Arab world are screwed into oblivion and replaced with an extension of Western Europe, Siberia, Central Asia, and Persia are rather worse than OTL.

In other Nazi victory TL‘s; such as CalBear’s. Nazi Europe is presented has the horrific dytopia it invariably would be (in fact I think CalBear was a bit optimistic). In Eurofed’s case Nazi Europe is presented as being only slightly dysfunctional in some areas but generally a good place to live. It is presented in fact as a somewhat desirable outcome.

My TL was purposefully written to be the polar opposite outcome of Calbear's (within reason, of course). Calbear's Nazi empire is a rather typical but well-reasoned example of "wicked, lucky, and dumb" Nazi, which somewhat luck their way into winning WWII, but fatally shot themselves into foot soon afterwards with dumb batshit insanity.

My TL is meant to be a well-reasoned example of "wicked, lucky, and smart" Nazi, which keep all of their basic homicidal urges, get enough luck to win WWII, but gradually evolve out of dumb batshit insanity, become sufficiently efficient at running an empire, and evolve in a direction much like Maoist China or Soviet Russia. Fascist Europe eventually grows to be a place which is more or less as good or bad to live in as modern China or Late/Post Soviet Russia (with a more efficient economy), out of the pressures of reality clashing with ideology. They went and built their continental superstate on the mass graves of Slavs and Arabs, although sheer imperial overstretch exhaustion, resources limitation, and unconscious collective satiety at mass murder made them eventually give up further expansion of Lebensraum in Asia and Africa. It is however anyone's guess what availability of increasingly powerful biotechnologies may do to their collective psyche in the 21st century.

As I see it, both TLs are examples of possible outcomes for the same basic scenario.

This is either a result of Eurofed’s own ideological sympathies or an impressively elaborate display of trolling.

Actually, this is the result of trying to write a best case scenario for the Axis. Calbear has been already writing a well-written TL where the Nazi build a continental WarPact/North Korea hybrid and dumbly make themselves sitting ducks for the heroic Yanquis comeback that saves Europe by destroying it soon afterwards the apparent victory of the Nazis. I meant to do something quite different and much more akin to a real Cold War between Fascism and Democracy. This required to manage butterflies so that the fascist block becomes efficient enough to be a credible long-term opponent to the Western block.

About the last bit of unwarranted attack, I knew there was a good reason why I had put you in my ignore list. :mad:

But other, nicer people had expressed interest on a comment of mine about the argument UF made, so here it is. I'm not however much interested on derailing CB's fine TL thread with a lengthy and in all likelihood flamey discussion of my TL's merits, or lack thereof, especially with a guy I've already put in my ignore list.

The Nazis put all their pseudo-science Deutsche Physik bollocks behind them, even though it had just "won them the war", in their eyes at least,

Since when in my TL, or in any non-ASB Axis victory TL for that matter, the Nazi won by using Vril-powered death rays and Atlantean spells ??? Victory in WWII by usual, real-world means is not going to convince guys like Goering, Speer, Manstein, and Rommel that the pseudoscience crap peddled by Himmler's occultist flunkies has any merit.

Moreover, Nazi committment to pseudoscience is often overblown beyond reality. Hitler and the rest of Nazi bigwigs had little ideological trouble establishing a nuclear research program, so Nazi dislike of "Jewish Science" had definite limits even IOTL.

and Nazi disregard for petty morality and ethics meant that genetic sciences were decades ahead of OTL, despite the fact that many capable scientists would have been killed, there would have probably been a distinct lack of investment, and that many senior Nazis were into all kinds of unscientific bullshit

I remember that one, it was ASB, there were assumptions that technology would be developed in the 50's that was somehow decades ahead of early 21st century technology. I dunno where such logic came from. Simply allowing uninhibited human testing does not guarantee drastically faster results.

Actually my intention in that thread was to define how much TTL early 21st century biotechnologies might become more advanced than OTL thanks to Nazi disregard of medical ethic and enthusiasm for eugenetics. I never meant that they would become available in the 1950s, far from it. :eek:

Even so, my initial assumptions about the issue were admittedly a tad optimistic, but that was the effect of my fanboy enthusiasm for genetic engineering. I have long since restricted myself to follow the productive and reasoned advice of a TL commentor who seems to have real-world experience with the field and a constructive attitude to the scenario, and which already helped me settle some thorny demographic issues about the extent of Lebensraum colonization.

By the way, those Nazi bigwigs heavily invested into pseudoscience were essentially Himmler, and my expectation is that in the most likely case, he suffers a Beria or Jiang Qing fate as soon as Hitler dies soon after the war. The guy was loathed by most other Nazi bigwigs, and the army hated his guts.
 
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My TL was purposefully written to be the polar opposite outcome of Calbear's (within reason, of course). Calbear's Nazi empire is a rather typical but well-reasoned example of "wicked, lucky, and dumb" Nazi, which somewhat luck their way into winning WWII, but fatally shot themselves into foot soon afterwards with dumb batshit insanity.

My TL is meant to be a well-reasoned example of "wicked, lucky, and smart" Nazi, which keep all of their basic homicidal urges, get enough luck to win WWII, but gradually evolve out of dumb batshit insanity, become sufficiently efficient at running an empire, and evolve in a direction much like Maoist China or Soviet Russia. Fascist Europe eventually grows to be a place which is more or less as good or bad to live in as modern China or Post/Late Soviet Russia, out of the pressures of reality clashing with ideology. They went and built their continental superstate on the mass graves of Slavs and Arabs, although sheer imperial overstretch exhaustion, resources limitation, and unconscious collective satiety at mass murder made them eventually give up further expansion of Lebensraum in Asia and Africa. It is however anyone's guess what availability of increasingly powerful biotechnologies may do to their collective psyche in the 21st century.

As I see it, both TLs are examples of possible outcomes for the same basic scenario.



Actually, this is the result of trying to write a best case scenario for the Axis. Calbear has been already writing a well-written TL where the Nazi build a continental WarPact/North Korea hybrid and dumbly make themselves sitting ducks for the heroic Yanquis comeback that save Europe by destroying it soon afterwards the apparent victory of the Nazis. I meant to do something quite different and much more akin to a real Cold War between Fascism and Democracy. This required to manage butterflies so that the fascist block becomes efficient enough to be a credible long-term opponent to the Western block.

About the last bit of unwarranted attack, I knew there was a good reason why I had put you in my ignore list. :mad:

But other, nicer people had expressed interest on a comment of mine about the argument UF made, so here it is. I'm not however interested on derailing CB's fine TL thread with a lengthy and in all likelihood flamey discussion of my TL's merits, or lack thereof, especially with a guy I've already put in my ignore list.



Since when in my TL, or in any non-ASB Axis victory TL for that matter, the Nazi won by using Vril-powered death rays and Atlantean spells ??? Victory in WWII by usual, real-world means is not going to convince guys like Goering, Speer, Manstein, and Rommel that the pseudoscience crap peddled by Himmler's occultist flunkies has any merit.

Moreover, Nazi committment to pseudoscience is often overblown beyond reality. Hitler and the rest of Nazi bigwigs had little ideological trouble establishing a nuclear research program, so Nazi dislike of "Jewish Science" had definite limits even IOTL.





Actually my intention in that thread was to define how much TTL early 21st century biotechnologies might become more advanced than OTL thanks to Nazi disregard of medical ethic and enthusiasm for eugenetics. I never meant that they would become available in the 1950s, far from it. :eek:

Even so, my initial assumptions about the issue were admittedly a tad optimistic, but that was the effect of my fanboy enthusiasm for genetic engineering. I have long since restricted myself to follow the productive and reasoned advice of a TL commentor who seems to have real-world experience with the field and a constructive attitude to the scenario, and which already helped me settle some thorny demographic issues about the extent of Lebensraum colonization.

By the way, those Nazi bigwigs heavily invested into pseudoscience were essentially Himmler, and my expectation is that in the most likely case, he suffers a Beria or Jiang Qing fate as soon as Hitler dies soon after the war. The guy was loathed by most other Nazi bigwigs, and the army hated his guts.

I'm not saying the Nazis won through pseudo-science in your TL, I'm saying thats what the people at the top would have perceived as causing their victory-look atit from the Nazis, or at least many of the most influential Nazis POV- you've just taken on the slavs, Yanks, jews, bolsheviks etc through Ayran martial prowess, good German science and technology, why would you try anything else? And whilst Rommel, Mannstein et al may have known the truth, how much water do you think the armies opinion will hold in post-war Germany, especially if it contradicts state ideology? I know you said the Nazis beliefs changed over time, which I guess I can accept, but at the time of victory they were as crazy as ever, and like CalBear suggests, I think there would have been a massive purge of the army following the war. The SS were already gaining influence, and although this was in part due to how the war was going, I think it was also part of Hitler's innate distrust of his officers
 

loughery111

Banned
My TL was purposefully written to be the polar opposite outcome of Calbear's (within reason, of course). Calbear's Nazi empire is a rather typical but well-reasoned example of "wicked, lucky, and dumb" Nazi, which somewhat luck their way into winning WWII, but fatally shot themselves into foot soon afterwards with dumb batshit insanity.

...

Actually, this is the result of trying to write a best case scenario for the Axis. Calbear has been already writing a well-written TL where the Nazi build a continental WarPact/North Korea hybrid and dumbly make themselves sitting ducks for the heroic Yanquis comeback that saves Europe by destroying it soon afterwards the apparent victory of the Nazis.

I've already commented on your scenario, but I do feel the need to point out that what CalBear has written is in NO way, shape, or form a worst-case scenario for the Axis. It is actually considerably closer to what would likely happen upon their taking all of Europe than you have written (not complaining as you repeatedly refer to yours as a best-case).

The only major tidbit I see as somewhat unlikely is that they don't even figure out that the Allies have nuclear weapons, let alone try to build them themselves. Even there, though, when you cultivated an intelligence atmosphere in which analysts had to fear being killed or deployed to the Eastern Front to tell their superiors what they did not want to hear, you're not likely to hear that the enemy has a super-bomb.

We refer to the Nazis as stupid not out of some desire to say "Woohoo! Here come the Americans!", but because IOTL they WERE stupid beyond all reasoning in most areas. They nearly won the war in spite of damned near every high-ranking Nazi being a idiot (Speer seems to be the primary exception), and the king of them all being a batshit insane imbecile, not because of them! Both the attack that kicked off the war and the total control of the defense by the Waffen-SS are not only plausible but entirely likely.
 
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