Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Technically, he might not be born ITTL given his late birthdate compared to the POD. However, I could see a 'brother of the same name' making an impact in history....in fact, you give me an idea....:D
Well the POD is 1766, right? What're your views regarding when the butterflies begin to fly anyways? IMO the butterflies start at later times in this order: Southern America, USA, Americas, Britain Europe, World

I look forward to the little scheme you appear to have thought up :D:p

EDIT: Page 50~~~! Whooo!
 

Glen

Moderator
According to an article on the 2nd Boer War in a spring, 2010 edition of Military History magazine, the term "redneck" is derived from a perjorative Boer Dutch slang term for early English arrivals to the then-Dutch Cape Colony (as I recall, something like "roonieck"). It was intended both to prick their snippy, superior attitude and refer to their tendancy to burn like crazy in the hot, southern African sun.

Sorry I don't have the exactly accurate term or article reference: I'm at work and away from my source materials right now.

Ha! I meant 'piker', not 'redneck'! Little did I know there was another 'redneck' nickname out there, one very different from the US version!!:cool:
 

Glen

Moderator
And conversely, if OTL they choose the US because they didn't like the cold climate and limited economic opportunities of Canada, with its much smaller population, many of them will choose the far more attractive BSA option available in TTL.

Agreed. Unfortunately, we have no real way of gauging that, though I'm guessing most immigrants didn't know exactly what they were getting into climatically.

What time period are you referring to here? Possibly in the early days, although not so sure. However for much of the latter part of the century at least Canada welcomed settlers from just about every part of Europe.

Steve

Talking about first half 19th century still.
 
Agreed. Unfortunately, we have no real way of gauging that, though I'm guessing most immigrants didn't know exactly what they were getting into climatically.

It is fair to say that most immigrant groups in a pre-climate-control age did tend to congregate in climactically similar areas to where they came from. Witness Scandinavians in Minnesota, Slavs in the Midwest (and Canada, which is US TTL) and Finns in the UP, compared to the more mild East Coast. Part of that has to do with the work they were seeking: factory workers cared less about climate, but people wishing to set up as farmers (like the Scandinavians, and many Germans and Slavs) will go tend to go someplace where the farming conditions are similar. For most of Europe, that excludes much of TTL BNA.
 

Glen

Moderator
Well by living in Arkansas I can tell you that your 50% right.And that is depending on where you are.

Yes we are the Walmart capitol of the world, the first to introduce "Fried Fat" and "Fried Butter" but all that is the out in the country.Little Rock, where I pay homeage to, is one of the best places in the U.S if you ask me (and I lived in NY for 10 years).

Were really liberal, weve got a awesome music scene, and the Hipster:Redneck population here is ATLEAST 2:1.

Of course from the outside Arkansas seems really redneck, and in alot of places it is, its not the steryotypical Bush Lovin', Wild West state I thought it would be when I moved here 8 years ago...

Anyway that was just my two cents on it, coming from a Arkansan.

Fried Fat and Fried Butter....wow, just wow. Petite Roche will likely be as cosmopolitan as OTL Little Rock.
 

Glen

Moderator
Gregorio_MacGregor.jpg


Gregor MacGregor was a Scottish soldier, adventurer and colonizer who fought in the South American struggle for independence. Upon his return to England in 1825, he claimed to be Toqui of Patagonia (also known as the Territory of Patagonia). Patagonia was a South American region that with MacGregor's help, drew investors and eventually colonists.

MacGregor was born in Edinburgh, Scotland 1785. His parents were Captain Daniel MacGregor and Ann Austin. In 1800, he joined the Royal Navy and served until the end of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815. By this time, MacGregor had heard about the independence movements in South America and in the United Provinces of South America in particular, where he arrived in 1816 with the rank of Captain.

Gregor MacGregor went from South America back to Edinburgh, in 1825 and pronounced that he had been created Toqui (war leader or prince) of Patagonia, an independent land of the native Mapuche on the southernmost region of South America. The leaders of the Mapuche, the loncos, had granted him fertile land with untapped resources, a small number of settlers of British origin, and cooperative natives eager to please, or so MacGregor claimed. He had created the beginnings of a country with civil service, army and democratic government. Now he needed settlers and investment and had come back to the British Empire to give people the opportunity. At the time, British merchants were all too eager to enter the South American market that Spain had denied to them. The region had already become more promising in the wake of wars of South American independence, when the new governments of New Granada and the UPSA had issued bonds in London Royal Exchange to raise money.

Scottish high society welcomed the colourful figure of MacGregor, and he and his Mapuche wife received many invitations. MacGregor claimed descent of clan MacGregor and that Rob Roy MacGregor had been his direct ancestor. He enhanced his allure by telling about his exploits in the Peninsular War and later in the service of José de San Martín and South American independence. In Edinburgh, MacGregor began to sell land rights for 3 shillings and 3 pence per acre (£0.16/acre or £40.15/km²). A worker's weekly wage at the time was about £1, which meant that the price was very generous. The price steadily rose to 4 shillings (£0.20). Many people willing to have a new start in the new land signed on with their families. MacGregor also opened land offices in Cardiff and Bristol. In 1826 MacGregor raised a loan with the total of £200,000 on behalf of the Patagonian government. It was in the form of 2,000 bearer bonds worth £100 each.

The Legation of Patagonia chartered a ship and Edinburgh merchants received contracts to provision the ship with food and ammunition. In 1827 the first British settlers, many Scottish and Welsh, departed for Patagonia. They included doctors, lawyers and other professionals who had been promised appropriate positions in the Patagonian civil service. Some had also purchased officer commissions in the Patagonian army.

The first settlers found the conditions much more rudimentary than they had expected. A few British deserters from Sandy Point had migrated up to join the Mapuche, and would later be joined by ex-convicts transported to the Magellanic Region from Britain. The settlers struggled for the first few decades, but MacGregor still proved charismatic, and more settlers arrived to tame the raw land. Sheep joined the natives herds of cattle, and a nascent society fusing Mapuche, Scottish, Welsh, and English (with a smattering of Spanish and Portuguese speakers from the north) began to form.

The UPSA attempted once to claim the territory, pushing the frontier further to the south than had been previously claimed. Much to the surprise of many Patagonians who had become disenchanted with MacGregor, Gregor MacGregor himself sailed forth to meet the South Americans in battle. He died leading his rag-tag army in battle, the last of the Toqui to do so. In 1840, the British Crown claimed the remaining lands of Patagonia and combined them with the Magellanic Straits and the Falklands to create the Province of British Patagonia.

Andes_70.30345W_42.99203S.jpg
 
Wow it actually worked, though I wonder about the inclusion of the Mapuche, it seems to go against existing Anglo behaviour in settler colonies (see North America and Australia).
 
Mmmm...very interesting to see that this succeeded where in OTL pretty much all of them like this failed.

My only comment would be that, since the UPSA encroached into Patagonia and then MacGregor died in battle defending the boundaries, presumably the UPSA actually managed to complete a large land-grab before the British heard about Patagonia and stepped in with their mother-like embrace over Patagonia? I can't see the British and the UPSA going to war over the borders, so I'm guessing the UPSA managed to move south by a few hundred miles before stopping?
 
So what are the actual borders of British Patagonia, on both sides of the Andes?

It might not actually be that attractive to settlers - far less livable than New Zealand, much less BSA or Australia. The main colonial structure will probably be corporate ship farms, not smallholders.

Additionally I don't think the Mapuche would be particularly keen on becoming British subjects, and the UPSA won't be able to project power particularly far at first.

Plus would the British government really compromise relations with an important economic partner like the UPSA for few thousand odd Scottish morons they can resettle somewhere else?
 
History suggests that the Welsh will go there at any rate - they did in RL, hence why Argentina is an anomaly in South America for playing rugby at an advanced level.
 

Glen

Moderator

Very nice.

I think the areas around the Great Lakes will be states soon. I remember reading that American immigration to the region stopped after the War of 1812 and changed westward, so that'll be butterflied away.

I think you can see that in the northerly development so far. The area north of the Great Lakes will be....interesting.:)

It seems the TL is finally getting around to a DSA, too!

Indeed, indeed....

:D How long to you plan to do the TL, Glen?

Oh, some way into the 21st century, I'm thinking....
 
Just a few thoughts on accents in TTL.

It looks like Patagonia will be mainly settled by Scots, Welsh, and English from the West Country. Both Scots and the West country dialects are rhotic, so I'm guessing that the Patagonian accent will be as well. It will certainly sound less typically British than an Australian or New Zealand accent. Perhaps a good comparison will be something midway between Bajan (without the African influence) and the English spoken in the Maritimes.

As to accents within the DSA, The accent of course had been pretty well established by the POD. However, it's likely more British influence will creep in. IOTL, for example, New York and Boston English took on a lot of characteristics of "proper" British English because it was perceived to be of high status. Hence the lack of rhotic speech in both, and the distinctive vowels like the "broad a" which link the Boston accent to Received Pronunciation.

ITTL, I think especially in urban settings you'll see more widespread use of a genteel accent similar to the classic "southern belle" sound from Gone With the Wind. Of course, Canada's dialect stayed divergent and incredibly similar to American English IOTL, so perhaps Southern English will be as resilient. It's possible California and South Florida will end up more British regardless, particularly if immigrants from Britain establish mass settlement before Southerners get there.

The USA will probably be very similar to OTL. Probably the only major difference will be a bit more of a Quebecois influence around the Upper Great Lakes. Indeed, the area which is OTL's northern Ontario could quite possibly end up Francophone, given it's crummier land that will be settled slowly enough that the Quebecois will have a shot at swamping other migrants.

BTW, where are the big cities going to be in the DSA? I'm guessing Charleston and New Orleans will the first big two. IOTL, by 1840 New Orleans had roughly 100,000, and Charleston 30,000. I'm guessing that Charleston will play the role of Boston (smaller, center of learning and culture), while New Orleans will be the DSA's New York (big, dirty, but the center of commerce).
 
After the death of Chief Black Hawk and the US Legion's driving of Wild Indians from the region, settlement between the Mississippi and Des Moines Rivers rapidly progressed. Eventually settlers in the 1840s, centered at the city of Des Moines petitioned Congress to create a new state in the region, which came to be called Mississippi.

The State of Mississippi takes its name, of course, from the river that forms its eastern boundary. It shares its southern boundary with the State of Missouri, made by the Des Moines River to 40 degrees 30 minutes north, which parallel comprises the rest of its southern boundary. The state's western boundary is comprised of the Missouri River to the Sioux River, and then along the Sioux River to its source. The northern boundary of the state is a line drawn due east from the source of the Big Sioux to the Minnesota River, which it then follows to where it meets the Mississippi River.

I approve! :cool:

I agree with Nugax on Patagonia but I don't want to raise a fuss about it.
 

Glen

Moderator
The Oregon Gold Rush is in fact a misnomer, as in fact the term references a series of gold rushes that occurred in the region of the Oregon Territory starting with one of the most famous, the MacKenzie Gold Rush, in 1845. While it is believed gold had been previously found in the region of the MacKenzie River by natives and fur trappers, the Northwest Company had tried to quash most rumors of gold to prevent having its domain invaded by prospectors. However, natives traded sailors out of Gray Island gold, and the word of the precious metal spread as the sailors returned to the United States. Thus were the 'Forty-fivers' born, prospectors who dared the lengthy voyage by land and sea to seek their fortune in the lands north of the 50th parallel. While the initial gold fields petered out, a steady flow of other small sites would keep dreamers and schemers heading for the region for more than a decade, and would help spur the United States out of its economic slump, as well as increase the numbers of settlers to the American Pacific Northwest.

Cabin_on_the_Fraser_BC_1862.jpg

Prospectors having a rare moment of relaxation during the Oregon Gold Rush
 

Glen

Moderator
French West Australia just makes me so very happy:D.

You're welcome.

I just wondered what the Westralian accent would be like :D

A very good question. Any suggestions out there who is most likely to migrate from France to Cygne Noir (West Australia)?

With the World Cup going on right now, I wonder how sports will evolve differently in the USA and DSA.

Indeed. I have been rather sucked into World Cup Mania myself! I think my mind might meltdown entirely on Wednesday....but yes, I think the evolution of sport in this world will be interesting, and will be the subject of several updates over time, though we're not quite there yet. Most folks in the world are still trying to eck out a living and sport hasn't really taken off yet.

I can imagine the US might be more interested in hockey and maybe even curling,

Curling clearly predates the POD, and given the number of Scottish coming to TTL's northern US, we can be all but assured that it will be one of their sports. An alternate form of hockey will too, though it shall be called Ice Hurley, I suspect.

but I wonder about the South's development. Will they be more interested in soccer (or will it be called football?) because of British influence? I imagine American football will be popular, as it is verypopular in the South IOTL and I don't know how popular rugby is in Canada (not much I'm guessing).

While there undoubtedly will be football games played ITTL, they will likely have different rules and forms that only vaguely resemble what we in the modern world are familiar with. The terms soccer and rugby probably will not even exist.

Plumber

Canada has a rugby team. Weren't doing too badly about a decade back but seem to have gone off the boil a bit since then.

In terms of whether the BSA were more interested in football or American football that, presuming both evolve into forms reasonably comparable to what we have now, probably depends on how relations between the BSA and US are. If pretty good then American football may well become popular, although the wider popularity of football and also the links with Britain, will probably make that more dominant. [Similarly, probably rugby and cricket are likely to have significant followings]. This is only really likely to change if there is a serious falling out between Britain and the BSA.

If relations between the US and BSA are rocky, say some equivalent to the 1812 conflict to make the BSA see the US as a clear threat to its liberty, then US sports are likely to have less impact.

The games will be somewhat different - time will tell how whether the two countries will be united or disunited by sport....

The other factor might be that with the Indians having an even rougher ride in the US,

Rougher is not quite right. Indians are having a rougher time in some ways (not easy to do compared to OTL!) but easier in others. Basically, Native Americans who settle down, farm, and pay their taxes are pretty well left alone. So called 'wild indians' (a term popular in both the USA and BSA) however are driven out of 'civilized' areas, in the case of the BSA to the West, and in the case of the USA to the North.

but decent relations with the BSA/Britain, is that sports with Indian connections are likely to be influenced as well.
Steve

Like Lacrosse perhaps?:)

I knew it had a team, but how popular is rugby in Canada? I also noticed that cricket seems to be much less popular in Canada than other parts of the Commonwealth.

I maybe completely wrong here, but looking at sports in OTL Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India cricket is popular in all four plus other former British colonies like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and the Windies, rugby's big in the first three and football (soccer) hasn't had as much of an impact in those countries. Perhaps someone else could shed some light on the reasons behind this. Assuming that these same reasons apply ITTL I think cricket (there's a lot of standing around and breaks so the hot, humid BSA climate shouldn't be a problem), rugby and some USAmerican sports perhaps more popular among ordinary BSAmericans due to US cultural influence would be the most popular sports. I think Latin American influence (particularly if the BSA expands southwards) might be the main avenue which popularises soccer in the BSA. Just my (uninformed) thoughts on the matter.

Note that cricket definitely and baseball probably predate the POD in their development if not exact codification. Cricket will remain popular within the Empire, though I suspect the rise of baseball in the US will be parallel to OTL, especially given the likely relation to Irish sport and the influx of Irish on their way to America.

As for the ATL forms of 'football', time will tell....
 

Glen

Moderator
The Great American Pastime - Baseball
The Great Southern Pastime - Cricket (boy, you should see those Cuban Cricketers!)
 
Rougher is not quite right. Indians are having a rougher time in some ways (not easy to do compared to OTL!) but easier in others. Basically, Native Americans who settle down, farm, and pay their taxes are pretty well left alone. So called 'wild indians' (a term popular in both the USA and BSA) however are driven out of 'civilized' areas, in the case of the BSA to the West, and in the case of the USA to the North.

Glen

That sounds different from OTL? I was presuming from a far more rapidly expanding US they would still be forced off their lands wherever practical by the settlers. Although arguably since there should be less settlers spread over a wider area there might be less pressure on any able to stay on some of their lands.

Like you I'm deep into the football. Coverage on the TV now and in ~35 minutes the game actually starts. Just hope we don't make the sort of mess of it we did last Friday.

Steve
 
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