Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[DuQuense]

Ah, but the Great Migration was due to the ramping up of the Factories in the North as much as Jim Crow in the South. Here the dynamic is going to be a little different.

OTL neither the Northern Whites [economic reasons] nor the Northern Blacks [Social reasons] wanted The Southern blacks moving North.
I see no reason why this would be Different ATL. There is no Slavery/Abolististism to muddy the Water. So I see lots of Anti Southern Black Immigration Legislation.


Whe are coming into the 1840's -- ?Will Whe see a Potato Famine in Ireland and Germany per OTL?
[Germans into US, while Catholic Irish move into Texas and West]

 

[Falastur]

Honestly, I can't see a language shift happening in a settler colony that rapidly, if ever. Look at Mauritius. The British seized it from the French in 1810, but the white upper class there is still francophone to this day.

I also was surprised by how fast it happened, and am not sure of the reality of such a happenstance, but I would counter your idea that it could never happen with such examples as (British) Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago and the Cape Colony (granted Afrikaans stayed a major language).

 

[Glen]

This thread is now 20th in terms of number of views, and 10th in number of replies, for the Before 1900 forum. Congratulations to all of you who have made it so!

 

[eschaton]

I also was surprised by how fast it happened, and am not sure of the reality of such a happenstance, but I would counter your idea that it could never happen with such examples as (British) Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago and the Cape Colony (granted Afrikaans stayed a major language).

Trinidad had a small Francophone population of mixed Spanish and French ancestry, and a larger population of free blacks and slaves. But it was still underdeveloped by Caribbean standards at the time, and the original culture was essentially expunged with the huge ramping up of the economy once the British took over.

Guyana was even more clear cut, as British settlers started coming in in the mid 1700s. It was probably already Anglophone when the transfer took place.

As for the latter, I don't think any Boers switched over to English - they just left for the Transvaal and the Orange Free State. And of course, the Cape Coloured didn't ever switch to English.

Going around the world with some other examples:

1. The former Danish West Indies (our U.S. Virgin Islands), were never Danish speaking. A dutch creole used to be spoken, but the islands were never dutch speaking.

2. The Dutch West Indies, despite being Dutch to this day, never went over to speaking Dutch. The "ABC" Islands off of Venezuela all speak a Portuguese-based creole, and the northern islands like Saba, Sint Eustatius, and Sint Maartin (including the French side) all speak English, despite being continually occupied by the Dutch since the end of the Napoleonic era, if not before that.

3. The British have been the best at facilitating language transfer in the Caribbean. Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent, and Grenada all once had French Creole speaking populations, which have now been largely supplanted by English. People in Dominica, in contrast, are still almost entirely bilingual in Creole and English (except in the far north, where some residents from an anglophone island (Saint Kitts IIRC) were settled.

Regardless, in all cases we're talking about creole languages spoken by the lower classes, which might not be the best comparison.

Off the top of my head, the only successful language shifts in settler states where populations being outswamped weren't the reason were in Canada (isolated francophone areas in places like Nova Scotia and Newfoundland), and New Orleans, which didn't see a decline in French until the 1880s.

These were, however, isolated islands within an English culture. Ultimately, the Hispanophone segments of the Caribbean were the earliest settled in the New World. By 1841 Cuba already has over a million people. To put this in perspective, Virginia had 1.2 million at the same time, despite having a much larger land area. By the standards of the time period, Cuba was pretty full.

Now, it is true that Britain seized the islands during a period that the white population was much, much lower (only around 45%, rather than the 66% or so today). Presumably Spanish migration to the area won't happen, and most of those who migrate will be English-speaking. But Anglophone people will have many other places to migrate as well. I'd say a "divided" culture similar to Quebec under British rule is most likely, with an eventual resurgence of the Hispanophones. Similar movements would probably happen in Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico. Haiti will probably shift over to English however to some degree - Creole languages just don't have as much prestige, and they are far more culturally isolated.

 

[Glen]

John Andrew Schulze was elected President of the United States on the Democratic-Republican ticket in 1828. The former Governor of Pennsylvania's rise to national prominence was indicative of how far the Democratic-Republican Party had shifted towards Federalist ideas during the preceding decades. While President Schulze advocated for the successful implementation of free compulsory education with a coalition of moderates from both his Democratic-Republicans and the opposition Federalist party, he did so insisting that states retain the ability to control the process of education within their own state. He also continued national efforts to improve interstate infrastructure for the purpose of trade, continuing the trend he had established during his governorship. It was under the Schulze presidency that the United States made their controversial purchase from Texas. Schulze was no rampant expansionist, but the Democratic-Republicans had some of their strongest support from the Midwestern States who were overall expansionist. While some extremists pushed for outright annexation of Texas, Neither Schulze nor Texan President Brown were interested in such a merger at the time. However, Schulze did feel that control of the strategic region around the Presidio of San Francisco would secure the US territories to the north. When Jackson won his second Texan Presidency, speculation arose again about annexation, but Jackson and Schulze mixed like oil and water, as one newspaper editorial put it.

President Schulze:

 

[Glen]

A large issue in the United States Presidential Election of 1836 was the trouble brewing in the British South. Many Americans had greeted the move by the British to end the practice of slavery with approval, but when it appeared that there might be rebellion brewing towards the end of the campaign season, others advocated supporting any Southern insurgency, in the hopes of removing the British from their borders forever and at least having another republic to their south like Texas, or perhaps even opening the way to annexation. While the actual stances of the two main candidates was somewhat elusive, in the end the superior military experience of the Federalist candidate, Peter Buell Porter, won the day. Buell had volunteered for the War of 1804 and fought with distinction in the territories. He later on served as President John Quincy Adam's Secretary of War, giving him a strong grasp on the needs for the nation's defense. He had been particularly outspoken among his own party for the need for a strong defense against possible British aggression as well as an advocate for removal of Indians across the Mississippi to the northern territories.

His presidency was notable for the defeat of the Black Hawk Band after the death of Chief Black Hawk, as well as containing the chaos of the Slaver Uprising to the south. The Porter Administration took a strictly neutral stance in the uprising, and focused on keeping trade open with all (much to the chagrin of all sides who had hoped to block support to their various factions along the border). The US economy had experienced a strong boom during this period, profiting off the war in many different ways. Some attribute the Panic of 1839 to the overheating of the economy during those years, as well as the wild infrastructure growth of the US over the past several decades. President Porter and the Federalists in Congress moved aggressively to stabilize the American economy, and many historians would come to credit Porter for laying the groundwork for the recovery in the 1840s. However, the electorate at the time did not feel the same, and President Porter was defeated in the 1840 election. He would die only a year after his term ended, in 1842.

President Porter:

 

[Beedok]

How is the Francaphone population doing? Any French Presidents on the way?

 

[Plumber]

The USA needs a state named Mississippi, most likely an Iowa or Minnesota analogue. Mississippi was the name of a state IOTL, and would be ITTL too since the BSA hasn't taken the name for a province.

 

[Glen]

Given that half the blacks are Freemen, Legally recognized rite of Slave to be paid for work not for owner. legal recognized marriages between Free & Slave Couples, Etc.
I don't see the Freeing of the Slaves as that big a change.

Yes and no. The remaining Hispanic plantocracy aren't that put out, but there was a lot of migration from Southern America and Britain in the past generation to take advantage of Cuba's possibilities, and they're not quite as enlightened - but yes, it's much as you say.

 

[Venusian Si]

Out of curiosity, how will Mexican and Southern American culture affect British Culture in terms of Cuisine and Music?

 

[JC Shurtleff]

Great TL!

One question, are we likely to see a major American religion grow up in this time like the Mormons?

 

[Glen]

Loving the timeline,

Great to have you on board!

but the fact that you named OTL Wisconsin - Michigan makes me sad

Sorry - is it any consolation that the UP is still called 'Michigan'?

 

[Glen]

Sultan Selim III struggled his entire life to drag the Ottoman Empire into the modern age. Fearful that European nations were beginning to outstrip the empire, he instituted many reforms that were unpopular among the conservative powers in the Ottoman Empire. However, many credit his efforts with planting the seeds of the Ottoman Renaissance. There were several revolts and plots during his rule, with the most serious being in 1807. His rule was saved by the efforts of Alemdar Mustafa Pasha and Muhammad Ali. Alemdar Mustafa had been one of Selim III's key allies in reforming the military, and Muhammed Ali had distinguished himself just a few years earlier in the Arabian Campaign which exterminated the Wahabbi sect and their supporters, among them the Saud clan, thus freeing the Arabian Peninsula from their influence.

Selim III's death in 1822 sparked a civil war among reformers and conservatives that contributed greatly to Ottoman inability to defeat the Hellas Revolution. However, by 1830 the conservatives had been dealt their final defeat, and the empire was firmly in the grip of a new, young Sultan, Mustafa IV, and his Grand Vizier Muhammad Ali Pasha.

 

[Glen]

This is a good timeline overall thus far.

Wendell! Great to have you reading along!!

 

[Glen]

Those Clothes the 5 Indians are wearing -- Are not what most People think of as Indian Clothing.

IIRC, even before contact, cotton had spread from Mexico into what's now the U.S. south. Thus, even the "traditional dress" of the region was woven fabric, and a lot different from the stereotype of buckskin breeches or whatever.

Indeed, those pictures are the 'real' face of Southeastern Indians. The fact of the matter is that many prominent Indian leaders were probably as much European as Indian if not more, and that their material culture in this region is becoming increasingly Europeanized.

 

[Glen]

Glen, this is a terribly interesting & enjoyable time-line.

Great to hear, please do keep up your reading!

I'm currently about 10 pages back & working my way up, and I have only one criticism - it is quite difficult to read, sifting between the commentary/discussion & the actual storyline. I was wondering if maybe you would consider splitting this into two threads - a story-only thread & a comment thread.

Its a tactic that's been taken by a few other TLs on the board (like The Complete United States of Ameriwank & England Expects That Every Man Will Do His Duty) & makes it easier read & keep track of everything that's going on.

We have a Dominion of Southern America timeline thread in Timelines and Scenarios that does just that!

 

[Glen]

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that. At least promise me that the flag of the Confederation will not become a cultural touchstone for rednecks the world over!

Oh, that might be worked out....

I think my ancestors are largely Yorkshire, Scottish Celtic fringe (Highlands/Western Ilse), obsure parts of Ireland, then the Shetlands and Orkney. So I think just have a tradition build up of Northerner, Islander and Celtic Balls and Dances in the new colonies and I think we can call it quits

Done!

Regarding NZ - in OTL American whalers from the North East were a common sight in what became New Zealand waters and I imagine the same economic driver would be there in this situation. So we can assume that North America (all English speaking parts anyway) are quite aware of NZ and so may consider trying their luck.

True enough. Whalers went all over, of course....

 

[Glen]

All to probable although it would depend on circumstances and people. As I said, if there was a big shock it might force a rethink.

For some yes. But if the private schools for the aristocrats were seen as places of rowdy disorder and ignorance I could see a lot of the new wealth holders seeking a better solution in their own schools teaching subjects of interest to them.

Steve

I guess the bottom line here is that there isn't likely to be too much change....perhaps a drift towards more scientific theory to keep up with the Deist agenda of education in the states - unless they go in the opposite direction in reaction. Deists aren't particularly well thought of in Britain, and only nominally better in British Southern America (oh, they're fine for business and political alliances, but not in our Anglican Christian Nation, oh no!).

 

[Glen]

Glen

I can see points 3 & 4 and Britain has a much larger interest in the Caribbean than OTL. However given the smaller land area and much larger initial population compared to Canada would this mean less interest/settlement in the southern ocean region? Britain's focus would be on the Caribbean instead of Canada, not necessary instead of Australia. While its warmer BSA has less land than Canada.

On the other, other hand, British Southern America has much more arable land than Canada, so in fact there's more 'livable' space for immigrants to the South than there was to Canada. Not to mention that people can come year-round. Basically the only British who don't go to the South are either radical riffraff who go to the United States, or convicts who go to Australia (and later, Patagonia).

Also the initial step in settling the south, for convicts and trading interests nearby will still be there. In fact, with Britain largely excluded from the fishing and coastal trade of N America there will be groups such as whalers even more interested in the southern seas. Which will mean activity in the various islands and desires for bases in the region.

Good points. The British will be there....just not alone.

Also, no matter than relations with France might be better they will still be seen as our biggest political and economic rivals so if they start establishing footholds in the region interest in London and the RN especially will pick up.

Not saying Britain will be as dominant as it was OTL but I would expect it will still seek to exclude French and other foreign political establishments as much as practical. If they establish themselves in western Australia say I could see a strong call to pre-empt them when it comes to New Zealand, or vice-versa. [Especially since to elements of public opinion the French getting established in both will be seen as an encirclement. A bit like all the fears of the Russians invading India via central Asia, or even worse the French under Napoleon via Egypt].

Steve

Now then, let's not jump too far ahead! So far these are very small footholds, and the British have been somewhat distracted by the Opium War and the Slaver Rebellion. I'm sure there will be some paranoia engendered. How it will end up remains to be seen.

 

[Arachnid]

What is the European population of Australasia at this point and what is the free settler/convict ration in alt NSW? Historically it was about 4 free settlers to every convict, here I'm guessing that's not the case.