Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Thats why I specified Florida (which doesn't have much of a plantation sector as of the yet) and the Caribbean, as I don't think that many places will need the labour (but those which do will need a lot).

I see your point. The only issue I see with Florida is the agricultural industry there IOTL didn't really skyrocket until after WW2 (cattle ranching became big earlier, in the late 1800s, but you don't need much labor for that). If TTL operates like OTL, that means by the time Florida really gets running the prime period for Indian indentured labor will have run its course.
 
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I see your point. The only issue I see with Florida is the agricultural industry there IOTL didn't really skyrocket until after WW2 (cattle ranching became big earlier, in the late 1900s, but you don't need much labor for that). If TTL operates like OTL, that means by the time Florida really gets running the prime period for Indian indentured labor will have run its course.

I thought citrus and sugar took off in the 1870-1910 period?
 
I thought citrus and sugar took off in the 1870-1910 period?

My understanding is that's the case (as is with tobacco), but the yields were much lower until modern technology could utilize the agricultural land in Florida to the fullest. Still, for example the citrus industry was much bigger in Florida than California during that period.

Edit: The basic point is, IOTL, black labor (peppered with some white labor) worked fine up until the postwar period in Florida, as demand for agricultural labor was lower. Hell, Florida was 44% black in 1900 - the Great Migration is part of the reason why Latino migrant labor became important.
 
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Glen

Moderator
?Wonder if TTL's AH.Com will be full of schemes for the US to Annex BSA? ?WI Jackson hadn't been killed? ?WI Texas had joined the US? ?WI the US had Gotten SCalifornia First? Etc.

Well, certainly the Discussion before Dominion section will be.:D Heck, they might even have a few where Guy Carleton doesn't become Governor of North Carolina, if you can imagine such a thing! And don't forget the Dominion-wanks where the British take half of Latin America, or all of Louisiana when Jefferson wins in 1800 in the USA and stays out of the fight, or where Texas doesn't sell territory to America before the Confederation is formed....oh, the list is endless.
 
Although i haven't posted here yet, let me just say how much i love TTL :). Keep up the Good Work. However...

British Dixie: YYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS :D

French Western Australia and South New Zealand: NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :eek:
 

Glen

Moderator
As a native Southern Californian (not ITTL though, a stable Mexico will probably prevent an analog of my grandpa from immigrating to New Mexico, and even if that does happen, my *mom probably will never meet my *dad since she will be in the DSA and he will be in the USA. Congratulations, even an analog of me has little possibility of even remotely existing :p),

Ah shucks, just doin' my job....jumbling the timelines so as no one gets born we know.;)

something I was wondering was are both the American and British Californias called California? I think it would make more sense if American California was called "Alta California," and British California called "Baja California" (would be better names than Upper/Lower or North/South California IMO).

They are initially called Texan California and American California. These names will change over time, as you shall see....

Thanks! :D
I have adjusted the map now. The self-government provinces still have the new Dominion province coloring, while New Mexico and California now get the Dominion territory coloring (I think that's the old Dominion coloring) to show that they are Texan. Don't know if the British colonization of Australasia is off now.
View attachment 102387

I think this map is absolutely wonderful! Definitely captures what I'm thinking. We may have to tweak it again sometime in future, but this is really strong work!!!
 

Glen

Moderator
I have never posted in this thread, but I will admit that I'm already subscribed to this TL and have been following this TL for quite long relative to its creation. Splendid TL, Glen !! :) I will be very eager to see what kind of 20th century will this world see :cool:

Thanks for your patronage, and for stepping out of the shadows. Yes, the 20th century should be quite different....
 

Glen

Moderator
The settlement of the Trans-Mississippi north of Missouri was delayed by many years by the tenacity and leadership of the Indian Chief Black Hawk. Born before the American Revolutionary War, he was one of the leaders of the Indians fighting the Americans in the Old Northwest before being driven across the Mississippi River by the Americans in the aftermath of the War of 1804. Black Hawk was able to rally the survivors and local tribes in the region into a new band that came to be called the Black Hawk Band. For years the Black Hawk Band engaged in raids into surrounding states, until a new treaty was negotiated preventing white settlement on the region west of the Mississippi controled by the band, centered on the Des Moines River. The peace held for several years, until the death of Black Hawk in 1837. Both the treaty and Indian resistance rapidly crumbled, and the region was opened to American exploitation.

Chief_Black_Hawk3.jpg
 

Glen

Moderator
After the suppression of the Slaver Uprising and the dissolution of the Confederation of Southern America, there was a minor diaspora from the British South and the Texan lands. Some of the slaveocrats who had borne arms against the Crown could not abide in the land of their failure, surrounded by the blacks they had sought to keep slaves. A few who saw the end coming had managed to move them and some of their slave chattel to Portuguese Maranhao. More who lost everything in defeat were more likely to simply move north to the USA. Also liable to head north were those who had cared less about slavery and more about freedom from overseas rule. These southern immigrants often gravitated to the Democratic party which still had anti-British tendencies. The west, both of the United States and of the British South (which now included Texas, New Mexico, and California), also held some attraction for those trying to start a new life after their failure in the revolt.

Ironically, some freedmen in the British South would also head west to try to build a new life, and former slaver and slave would sometimes find themselves standing shoulder to shoulder fighting against hostile Indians in the region. However, there would be other venues for blacks seeking a new life than the British west.
 
After the suppression of the Slaver Uprising and the dissolution of the Confederation of Southern America, there was a minor diaspora from the British South and the Texan lands. Some of the slaveocrats who had borne arms against the Crown could not abide in the land of their failure, surrounded by the blacks they had sought to keep slaves. A few who saw the end coming had managed to move them and some of their slave chattel to Portuguese Maranhao. More who lost everything in defeat were more likely to simply move north to the USA. Also liable to head north were those who had cared less about slavery and more about freedom from overseas rule.

Interesting. What about the Hispanic upper class (former) slave-owners living in Cuba and the like? Does their different location (island mentality?) and ethnic basis make their migration patterns different, or even non-existent?

Just thought you should know I saved up my 1000th post for this thread by the way :D
 
Interesting. What about the Hispanic upper class (former) slave-owners living in Cuba and the like? Does their different location (island mentality?) and ethnic basis make their migration patterns different, or even non-existent?
Given that half the blacks are Freemen, Legally recognized rite of Slave to be paid for work not for owner. legal recognized marriages between Free & Slave Couples, Etc.
I don't see the Freeing of the Slaves as that big a change.
 
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Glen, this is a terribly interesting & enjoyable time-line.

I'm currently about 10 pages back & working my way up, and I have only one criticism - it is quite difficult to read, sifting between the commentary/discussion & the actual storyline. I was wondering if maybe you would consider splitting this into two threads - a story-only thread & a comment thread.

Its a tactic that's been taken by a few other TLs on the board (like The Complete United States of Ameriwank & England Expects That Every Man Will Do His Duty) & makes it easier read & keep track of everything that's going on.
 

Glen

Moderator
Fingers crossed for Germany. I've been waiting a very long time for a good TL where Germany and Italy spectacularly fail to unite and the HRE/Confederation of the Rhine continues to exist and turns into a modern institution without the states essentially turning into regional council districts under an all-powerful Emperor, a la OTL.

That said, in terms of plausibility...again, not so good.

Interesting thoughts, you ought to start a timeline to that effect! Well, we've already seen some butterflies hitting the continent, but only time will tell how far that will go.:)
 
Those Clothes the 5 Indians are wearing -- Are not what most People think of as Indian Clothing.

IIRC, even before contact, cotton had spread from Mexico into what's now the U.S. south. Thus, even the "traditional dress" of the region was woven fabric, and a lot different from the stereotype of buckskin breeches or whatever.
 

Glen

Moderator
BLASPHEMY! I guess now I'll read some skipped parts of your timeline (heh :eek:, I'm kinda lazy) to find out how this happened.

Well, please do read the early stuff in the Timelines and Scenarios thread (easier that way), but it won't help that much as the reasons are inferred rather than explicitly stated (see below for more).

French NZ wasn't really possible in the 1830s OTL (despite what some people think, France's influence was seriously minor). They just about screwed up every attempt here, and by the time they colonised Akaroa the British instantly came down and put up their flag. The next round of colonists were so shocked that the ship captains lied and said that they did it to appease the British who were "entirely" focussed on the North. In reality, the original colonists were diplomatically forced into it.

Now, since your POD is far before this I'm not going to be picky, and instead I shall spend the next few days (lazy, lazy me) rereading the parts I've read and not skipping anything.

Understood. The reasons for this difference in TTL and OTL is mainly that:

  • The British are more focused on the South and Caribbean than OTL.
  • There is less immigration to Australasia from the UK due to the British in the South and the Caribbean.
  • The French are doing modestly better since 1815 due to a more stable political outcome with the installation of Loius-Napoleon as president (think of him as in some ways equivalent to Juan Carlos of Spain IOTL and how he helped Spain after Franco). With more stable France, the French are starting to look once more across the world for influence. They see opportunities in Australasia.
  • After the Reform Revolution, the British are on a bit better footing relations-wise with the French, who also are a more liberal monarchy for the time.

Oh, I don't know. It would mean less car-crashes and street races if Christchurch didn't exist as we know it.
:D:D:D

BUT! From what I have read, I do really think you're doing a fantastic job. I'm still amateurish at best in most aspects of history (still young, still young), so I find it hard to comment on anything other than your timeline as a whole. Sorry about that :eek:.

That's fine. Heartfelt compliments are always acceptable! And you can provide a lot of insight into your region of the world, which I am a hopeless neophyte in myself.:cool:
 
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