Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[DuQuense]

?I'm wondering if British control of California/Baja will mean more Asiatics on the West Coast?

Which Asiatics were you thinking of?

Originally Chinese, [you have the same OTL British involvement in China] with some Japanese after opening.

Okay. Why would you think that British control would equate to more Japanese in the area?

The British will allow more Asiatics, due to weaker Anti Asiatic restrictions. As the Brits are Southern California AND Baja, this is where the Japanese Fishermen will settle.

 

[Glen]

Circa comments about Australia being behind OTL, is there any chance the British have still organised the New Zealand declaration of independence? I fear there's a tendency to delay Australasian development, and I fear that that tendency will allow the French time to nip in and get our loyalest colony first

It might be possible that there is something parallel to it that could happen. I suppose the real question would be would it hold any more sway than the OTL declaration did?

There's definitely a delay in the development of Australasia compared to OTL. And there is the possibility of the French taking advantage I suppose....time will tell.

 

[Glen]

The State of Panama is the southernmost state of Mexico. It is the only state in Mexico that started out as part of the Viceroyalty of New Granada. As the the wars for independence heated up in Spanish America, the Panamanians were in an unusual position between the emerging Mexican Republic, based on federal principles, and the Nariño led centralists of New Granada. Panamanian federalists won the day in Panama, and elected to join the nascent Mexican federation rather than be subject to a centralist regime. While New Granada might have wished otherwise, Panama was far on its periphery, separated on land by the neigh impenetrable Darien Jungle.

The Darien Jungle​

During the outbreak of war in Mexico, some ambitious politicians in New Granada advocated annexation of Panama. However, British command of the seas precluded a naval approach, and the one land expedition attempted through the Darien was lost before ever making it to Panama. Panama and her neighbor, Costa Rica, remained fairly peaceful during most of the troubles, both in the hands of federalists who were on good terms with one another. When Jorge Quintana of Yucatan put together the first southern Mexican coalition of federalists, both Panama and Costa Rica joined eagerly.

 

[Glen]

The 1820s and 1830s were an age of reawakening for the French Empire. King Louis-Napoleon had managed to bring stability to the long warring nation in the decades since 1815, moderating between liberals and conservatives in the French legislature. As the legitimate inheritor of the mantles of both the Bourbons and the Bonepartes, he was in a unique position to do so. One man who would arise from the past to become one of his key allies in the reconciliation of the nation was the Marquis de Lafayette.

By the 1830s, the French who had lost so much of their overseas holdings began to establish new ones, with outposts in New Holland at Cygne Noir and Port Louis-Napoleon on the island of French Australe.

Port Louis-Napoleon

 

[Glen]

And yes, I know that some of the maps (especially world maps) will need to be retconned.

 

[Communard 1871]

The amount of thought put into this timeline is both impressive and disturbing. Keep up the awesomeness!

 

[Glen]

Nice touch, I really like the Coronet.

Thanks, it took some work making.

I am really wondering where the timeline will go from here. Now that the USA has a firm border with a culturally similar southern neighbor, I'm not predicting a future war between them so much.

Probably not. Time will tell, though.

But the USA is going to need to get to the Pacific ports to supply the American west. This will probably mean interest in a canal in Central America, just like OTL.

Well, a canal would certainly be of use.

The difference here is that the USA is cut off from the Caribbean by the British South, which could mean they will try and make a base in the area. This should be pretty easy--many Caribbean nations like El Salvador

Currently part of Mexico.

and the Dominican Republic

Currently part of the British Empire.

wanted to join the USA at points in their history, and were turned down. With the USA wanting a base in the Caribbean more than ever, perhaps they won't.

I don't think the Americans are anxious to take on the British at this point in history.

Also, how large a presence do the Russians have in Alaska? I wonder if it will be sold as IOTL...

Smaller than OTL. Hmmm....a sale might happen....again, time will tell....

 

[Falastur]

My worst fears are realised! The French can't be allowed to stay in New Zealand

 

[Julius Vogel]

Oh dear, this means my ancestors have to stay on wind blasted Scottish islands/Ulster/Yorkshire etc. Damm you Glen!

 

[Glen]

I disagree the reason why the US didn't want El Salvador is the same as they didn't take more of Mexico, they didn't want a area heavily populated with Hispanic Catholics. At this point the US is overwhelmingly Anglo-Protestant, bringing in an area dominated by Spanish speaking, Catholics is not going to be popular.

Ah, but both the US and the British Caribbean have more Catholics in them than OTL, with the Catholics in the British Caribbean being more Spanish to boot!

However, I tend to agree that neither the Americans nor the British are really interested in taking on a large Spanish population at this time (though some factions in Britain thought hard about it).

 

[Glen]

It occurs to me the way the borders of Texas worked out, it's probably an overwhelmingly Anglo state, even at its current low settlement level. The historically Mexican areas of South Texas are still in Mexico, and the El Paso region (which was comparably unsettled, but probably had some Mexican presence by then), is in New Mexico.

Yes, funny the way that worked out....

New Mexico honestly is probably mostly Mexican. In OTL's 1842 census there were roughly 47,000 Hispanophones and only 16,500 Pueblo. The borders are of course a bit different here, it includes West Texas and part of OTL Arizona. However, if I'm looking at the map correctly Juarez is also within the borders of New Mexico - meaning it's overwhelmingly Mexican in population at the moment.

You are pretty much right on all counts, except to note that there is a bit more Anglo presence around Santa Fe, since they've been running the territory from there, and have been doing so since the 1820s.

 

[Glen]

In the aftermath of the Slaver Uprising arose the new British colonial province of Carleton. Carleton was based primarily in the former trans-Appalachian North Carolina as well as Georgia north of the Cherokee River. The pre-Southern Civil War history of Carleton started with settlement by many of the same families who participated in the Regulator War. They would be followed after the American Revolutionary War by Loyalist families who had fled from Virginia and other northern states. The period between the American Revolution and the Slaver Uprising was dominated by clashes between the Loyalists and the First Nations who would raid across the USA-BSA border. Several prominent Loyalists of western North Carolina participated in British operations across the Mississippi during the Napoleonic Wars. While there was slavery in this region, it was not nearly as widespread as in some British provinces and in fact this area had the first abolitionist newspaper in continental British Southern America. The loyalists had driven the wild Indians away from the border between the Appalachians and the Mississippi, stood ever vigilant to repel any aggressions of the Yankees to the north, but were settling down to more prosperous times as the Civilized Tribes to their south turned from war to commerce, when the rebellion started. Loyalists in the region held fast to the Crown and were able fighters in the war, and were amply recognized and rewarded for their fidelity during the fight. When the Crown granted permission for them to form their own province, they chose to name it after the former governor of North Carolina who had done so much to hold their land loyal, and had been instrumental in helping so many of their ancestors migrate to the region, Guy Carleton. The first capitol of Carleton was established at Mulberry.

First house in Mulberry:

 

[Glen]

I didn't know why the USA didn't accept El Salvador until just now. In regard to the Dominican Republic, however, I know that was blocked by many Southern states, which won't happen ITTL(assuming the Dominican Republic asks to be annexed ITTL).

British took over the whole of Hispaniola during the Napoleonic Wars, so there never was a Dominican Republic ITTL.

 

[Glen]

Disagree. Consider the following.

1. All of the Antilles are now owned by Great Britain.

2. Everything down to Costa Rica is part of Mexico

Yes to both.

3. There is no planter class in the U.S. anymore from which the "fruit barons" who were behind many of the OTL interventions in Latin America.

Um, not quite. Some planters remained loyal to the crown. Ironically, there's also a lot of planters who are Indians as they by and large sided with the Crown. So while the planter class has taken a big hit, they're not quite gone.

If I were to hazard a guess, it will turn out as follows:

The U.S. is going to cultivate a close relationship with Mexico. This is for several reasons. The US offers no threat to Mexico, as they lack a common border.

True thus far.

The U.S. can serve as a check on potential British attempts to chip away at Mexico.

Maybe, but I doubt the US would go as far as war with the British on behalf of Mexico....unless the British did something really stupid....

And as international trade picks up, the U.S. is going to want to have a non-British source for tropical fruit like bananas, and Mexican-owned Central America is the most likely place.

Why exactly would the US want a non-British source for tropical fruit? Now then, I can see some American business interests wanting to own their own tropical fruit businesses, which is a different thing entirely, and could be accomplished by investing in the fruit business in Mexico and the British Caribbean.

Thus, the U.S. will likely sponsor a "Mexican Canal" in OTL Nicaragua.

As a counterbalance, the British will probably be involved in Gran Columbia (can't remember the name TTL). Keeping them friendlier gives the British an option to build a Colombian canal. The relationship may be more like a client state than the U.S./Mexico relationship however, given Gran Colombia has comparably little to gain from the venture (but less to lose than Mexico of course).

New Granada is the name here....and they don't have Panama. The British already have right of way agreements with Mexico for a trans-isthmus route in Nicaragua. Now then, that's not to say that the US won't want to get in on the act, far from it....

 

[Glen]

Interesting... so Mexico has its Washington, ehh?...

Indeed. One might think of them as the Two Georges....

 

[DuQuense]

New Granada is the name here....and they don't have Panama. The British already have right of way agreements with Mexico for a trans-isthmus route in Nicaragua. Now then, that's not to say that the US won't want to get in on the act, far from it....

IIRC the OTL Treaty allowing the building of the Nicaragua Canal had provisions about it being a joint US/British venture.

While TTL's DSA will be more Maritime oriented than OTL's Canada, So will TTL's US. They will compete for Shipping Rites in Mexico and SAmerica.
However except for this I don't see any real area of conflict. In fact I see them cooperating in TTL's version of a "Monroe Doctrine".

?Wonder if TTL's AH.Com will be full of schemes for the US to Annex BSA? ?WI Jackson hadn't been killed? ?WI Texas had joined the US? ?WI the US had Gotten SCalifornia First? Etc.

 

[Plumber]

As a native Southern Californian (not ITTL though, a stable Mexico will probably prevent an analog of my grandpa from immigrating to New Mexico, and even if that does happen, my *mom probably will never meet my *dad since she will be in the DSA and he will be in the USA. Congratulations, even an analog of me has little possibility of even remotely existing ), something I was wondering was are both the American and British Californias called California? I think it would make more sense if American California was called "Alta California," and British California called "Baja California" (would be better names than Upper/Lower or North/South California IMO).

Very nice map, but if you're going to color the sections differently, I might suggest that you make the responsible government provinces the same color as dominions in UCS, and keep the ones under military rule just British empire color. Might want to do something different than the white borders to show that New Mexico and California are under Texan administration, not sure what, though (british color with dominion outline?). Yes, the borders for American California Oregon and that strange one crossing the Missouri (what is that?) are off. The states themselves look pretty good, though I need to figure out when the analogue of Iowa gets statehood (probably should be before TTL's Michigan (ie Wisconsin plus UP).

I'd show a bit more of Patagonia as British at this point, and we probably ought to retcon Australia to show less clear British presence to match (still need to flesh that out, though, so don't leap to change yet).

Overall fabulous work, Plumber. You really ought to showcase it in the Map thread as well!

Thanks!
I have adjusted the map now. The self-government provinces still have the new Dominion province coloring, while New Mexico and California now get the Dominion territory coloring (I think that's the old Dominion coloring) to show that they are Texan. Don't know if the British colonization of Australasia is off now.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

I have never posted in this thread, but I will admit that I'm already subscribed to this TL and have been following this TL for quite long relative to its creation. Splendid TL, Glen !! I will be very eager to see what kind of 20th century will this world see

 

[Glen]

Forgot about Mexico. It's always the damn Mexicans who foil my plans! But your judgment on Mexico seems right; with border disputes with the British America, they will want an ally in the USA. And the USA will want an ally in Mexico for access to the Pacific. A match made in heaven.

Sorry to hear that Mexico seems to thwart you at every turn....are you perhaps turning avaricious eyes towards Mexican lands too much?

I don't know about a match made in heaven, but the Americans and Mexicans do have some common interests, which is always a good start.

 

[The Doctor]

Strong Mexican government! Divided Brazil, Australia, AND New Zealand! In the great words of George Takei, Oh My!