Glen
Moderator
And in one fell swoop you exceed the sum of all my posts on this board
Ah, Falastur, have you ever looked at my posting stats before? You shouldn't feel bad, nor be surprised.
Ah, Falastur, have you ever looked at my posting stats before? You shouldn't feel bad, nor be surprised.
Not sure about this.
OTL the South went Bankrupt with the Canal Companies Collaspe [1830's], almost came back pre War , and was Bankrupt again after the war.
But by the 1880's-90's The Cotton Barons, were wealthier than ever before, despite having most of their plantations split up.
ITTL the war was sooner and less destructive. I see the development of the Share-cropper Institution, And Boom times for the Cotton Industry, and the Planter Class.
Glen
Moderator
Thank you for the compliment!
You would guess correctly.
non-Anglo Europeans are more tolerated in the USA than the BSA.
Not quite. After ARW, Loyalists were more resistant to having convicts shipped over, and Britain heeded them in this. Basically voluntary emigration from Britain tended to go to the South, involuntary (ie convicts) tended to go Australia. There's a British presence there, but less populated than OTL thus far. More later.
Despite most people perceptions early Australia was not dominated by convicts, there were always more free settlers than convicts in OTL. However without substantial free settler migration then that isn't going to be true causing some serious butterflies, not least a proportionally much bigger Catholic Irish population.
Glen - you have put together a very enjoyable TL, and was happy to see you quickly get through with the war/rebellion. From a personal preference, I generally skip over TLs that get into the minutae of battles and army movements, etc. (while I don't bregrudge those folks that are into that sort of thing). But I like to see the focus be on the political, social, demographic, cultural and technological ramifications brought about by your divergent history.
What is truly fascinating about your TL is that you have created a believable alternate world for OTL South that is similar enough to our own that we recognize it, but different enough to be moving along on a distinct plane. In both OTL and in TTL, slavery was the overarching theme that put both worlds on a course that would eventually lead to war. But here, that war occurred 20 plus years earlier and slavery has ended 20 plus years sooner (Hallelujah). Now in TTL, the South has the 1840s and 1850s in which to chart a course far different than it did in OTL. I am really looking forward to seeing all the changes upcoming.
What is truly fascinating about your TL is that you have created a believable alternate world for OTL South that is similar enough to our own that we recognize it, but different enough to be moving along on a distinct plane. In both OTL and in TTL, slavery was the overarching theme that put both worlds on a course that would eventually lead to war. But here, that war occurred 20 plus years earlier and slavery has ended 20 plus years sooner (Hallelujah). Now in TTL, the South has the 1840s and 1850s in which to chart a course far different than it did in OTL. I am really looking forward to seeing all the changes upcoming.
DuQuense
Possibly but given the political situation I think the other alternative is at least possible. Given that it was a civil war this time around, rather than a [predominantly] regional [north/south] conflict there is an incentive to reward the winners and cripple the loser's ability to cause further problems. Also the greater prominence of the blacks as a significant force makes for an incentive to secure the position [and hence support] of the large number of freed blacks, as well as the white small farmers to win them over.
I can see some big estates still surviving because there are probably some loyalist ones and if they can get a decent share-cropping system going that would enable some continuation of economies of scale in farming. However I could also see a lot of the old rebel planters being the scapegoats for the rebellion and much of their assets being seized.
Steve
Sorry I didn't make it clearer, I agree that a lot of Rebel Plantations and Business will be going under the hammer. Probably most being split up in the process.
What I was thinking about was the power base of the Planter Class.
In the 1800's Cotton was one of the two most profitable crops in the world *. But required large Economies of Scale.
This degree of Wealth will [Golden Rule]** mean corresponding Political Influence.
Whither it starts with the remaining Planters, the Cotton Brokers, or the end Industrialist/Capitalists, the revolutions*** 3rd generation romanticism**** image is Idealist Country Estates ****,
so this wealth will be used to re-buy/reassemble the Planter Plantation society, and the Planters Political Power.
* The Other One being Tea. Like Coffee the fresher the Leaves [or Beans] the sweeter the product. [Coffee and Tea Buyers can tell the age by the Bitterness factor].
The Wealth is what spurred the Clipper Race [Both Design and actual]. However ITTL I wonder what effect the lack of National Completion between New England and the Maritimes will have.
A lot of the Competition between the Designers, and Captains from the two areas was based on bringing the record home out of National Pride.
This Race for the freshest also lead to the British investing [1850's] in Carolina Tea Plantations.
** He that owns the Gold - Makes the Rules.
*** Industrial in this case.
****1st Generation = Revolution - against the Status Quo
2nd Generation = Reactionary - attempted return to old Status Quo
3rd Generation = Romanticism - Romantic Image of the Pre Revolutionary Status Quo
4th Generation = Post Revolution - is the new Status Quo
***** ITTL the new Cotton Barons Wealth will come during the 3rd Generation [1840's~50's] Romanticism. OTL the New Cotton Barons rose during the 1880's, and were 4th Generation.
They used their wealth to build large Mansions in the City beside the Oil, Railroad, Mining & other"Robber" Barons.
With more limited access to the North and factoring in shipping costs to Blighty I suspect that the South is somewhat more industrialised, this being true I would think that a lot of the Wealth of the Cotton boom would end up not in recreating the rural plantocracy but would flood into the Urban industrial barons hands. Though as in a OTL Britain they would probably spend their new found wealth on Country estates.
Glen
Moderator
No, just tied up. Yours was the next in the cue.
Yeah, not so much I think. Didn't need the US Constitution to come up with racism.
Now that, on the other hand, I think might just be true.
Hmmm, interesting views. Those all would be very interesting, but I think you'll find that the British have slightly different ideas, as do those die-hard slavers....
Glen
Moderator
The state of Missouri was the first state west of the Mississippi. Starting at the border with British Southern America at 36-30, it had as its eastern boundary the Mississippi river. The state's western boundary was a straight line north from the BSA border to the juncture of the Missouri and Kansas rivers, then following the Missouri river north until the parallel at 40 degrees and 30 minutes north. This parallel then formed the northern border of the new state. It was later discovered that the border at 40-30 created a small area cut off from the rest of Missouri by the Des Moines River. When the State of Mississippi formed to the north, this No-Man's-Land would be ceded to it.
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Glen
Moderator
Well, time will tell, but your points I think are quite good, DQ. However, who do you think is most likely to be the next big whigs in this Planter Class, the Loyalist Planters, the former Rebel Planters, both, or someone else yet again?
Glen
Moderator
Do you have a reference on this, because so far all the references I can find to the early, early settlement seems pretty convict-heavy.
Yes, this is true. Even if it was a cliche that Australians are the descendents of a bunch of convicts, ITTL that's going to be more true.
Australia is also less populous than the same period OTL, at least so far.
Glen
Moderator
Thomas Cochrane was born at Annsfield, near Hamilton, South Lanarkshire, Scotland, the son of Archibald Cochrane, 9th Earl of Dundonald and Anna Gilchrist. She was the daughter of Captain James Gilchrist and Ann Roberton, the daughter of Major John Roberton, 16th Laird of Earnock.
Cochrane was descended from lines of Scottish aristocracy and military service on both sides of his family. Through his uncle, Admiral Sir Alexander Forrester Inglis Cochrane the sixth son of the 8th Earl of Dundonald, Cochrane was cousin to his namesake Sir Thomas John Cochrane who also pursued a naval career and became Governor of Louisiana. The family fortune had been spent by 1793 and the family estate was sold to cover debts. Cochrane spent much of his early life in Culross, Fife, where his family had an estate. There is now a bust in his honour outside the Culross Town House.
Through the influence of his uncle, Alexander Cochrane, he was listed as a member of the crew on the books of four Royal Navy ships starting when he was five years old. This common, though unlawful practice (called false muster), was a tactic to have on record some of the length of service necessary before he could be made an officer, if and when he joined the Navy. His father secured him a commission in the British Army at an early age, but Cochrane preferred the Navy, which he joined upon the outbreak of the French Revolutionary Wars.
Cochrane had a rather mixed record during the wars with the French. On the one hand, he was recognized as serving with bravery and panache, and his daring helped win many a prize for the ships he served upon. On the other hand, he often came into conflict with other officers and was seen as impertinent, disrespectful, and insubordinate. He was reprimanded about as often as he was commended.
He managed through luck (and the favor of Admiral Nelson, who admired his daring), to remain in service throughout the wars until the death of Napoleon. He then went on half-pay and ran for Parliament as a Radical, winning a seat where he served in the opposition until the outbreak of the Hellas Revolution, when he took leave of politics to fight in the war. After the Hellene victory, he was lauded by both Hellenes and British for his heroism and was quickly returned to Parliament upon his triumphal return.
Upon Cochrane's father's death in 1830, he resigned from Commons to take his father's seat in the House of Lords, but soon was in conflict with that reactionary group until the Reform Revolution of 1832, when new liberal lords were appointed. Then Cochrane became a prominent leader in that august house.
The outbreak of the Slaver Revolt in the mid 1830s was particularly galling to Cochrane, who felt the initial stages of the war were bumbled. Thus, when approached to resume active service and take command as Admiral, he jumped at the chance. As history knows, his aggressive and innovative leadership turned the tide of the war against Farragut's Confederationist navy and help bring the war to a swift conclusion.
Cochrane was descended from lines of Scottish aristocracy and military service on both sides of his family. Through his uncle, Admiral Sir Alexander Forrester Inglis Cochrane the sixth son of the 8th Earl of Dundonald, Cochrane was cousin to his namesake Sir Thomas John Cochrane who also pursued a naval career and became Governor of Louisiana. The family fortune had been spent by 1793 and the family estate was sold to cover debts. Cochrane spent much of his early life in Culross, Fife, where his family had an estate. There is now a bust in his honour outside the Culross Town House.
Through the influence of his uncle, Alexander Cochrane, he was listed as a member of the crew on the books of four Royal Navy ships starting when he was five years old. This common, though unlawful practice (called false muster), was a tactic to have on record some of the length of service necessary before he could be made an officer, if and when he joined the Navy. His father secured him a commission in the British Army at an early age, but Cochrane preferred the Navy, which he joined upon the outbreak of the French Revolutionary Wars.
Cochrane had a rather mixed record during the wars with the French. On the one hand, he was recognized as serving with bravery and panache, and his daring helped win many a prize for the ships he served upon. On the other hand, he often came into conflict with other officers and was seen as impertinent, disrespectful, and insubordinate. He was reprimanded about as often as he was commended.
He managed through luck (and the favor of Admiral Nelson, who admired his daring), to remain in service throughout the wars until the death of Napoleon. He then went on half-pay and ran for Parliament as a Radical, winning a seat where he served in the opposition until the outbreak of the Hellas Revolution, when he took leave of politics to fight in the war. After the Hellene victory, he was lauded by both Hellenes and British for his heroism and was quickly returned to Parliament upon his triumphal return.
Upon Cochrane's father's death in 1830, he resigned from Commons to take his father's seat in the House of Lords, but soon was in conflict with that reactionary group until the Reform Revolution of 1832, when new liberal lords were appointed. Then Cochrane became a prominent leader in that august house.
The outbreak of the Slaver Revolt in the mid 1830s was particularly galling to Cochrane, who felt the initial stages of the war were bumbled. Thus, when approached to resume active service and take command as Admiral, he jumped at the chance. As history knows, his aggressive and innovative leadership turned the tide of the war against Farragut's Confederationist navy and help bring the war to a swift conclusion.
Glen
Moderator
Thanks once more for the kind words, they are all most appreciated, I assure you and all the others who have been so complimentary.
Thanks, I like broad brushstrokes myself - leaves room for the imagination. But a well crafted, detailed history is a true work of art as well.
Glad to hear it, since that was my hope.
Glad to hear it! Yes, slavery had to be stomped out, one way or another. It was just too lucrative at this point in history to go 'quietly'....and yes, I too believe earlier the better, though it won't all be a bed of roses, I assure you.
Aracnid
Unfortunately that may not be the case. OTL, much to the south's discontent, the north insisted on high tariffs because the US couldn't compete with British industry. As such likely to be markedly more penetration of the south by British industry. [Although when it gets self-government the south, like Canada OTL, might well impose its own tariffs on British goods].
On the other side of the question, as its British territory, it might well gain more investment from Britain, probably at the expense of the north. Especially since its more populous and wealthy than Canada was OTL. Also, after the war, you might see a new wave of investment. Some government backed for specific purposes, security and stability say. Probably a lot more because rich people in Britain invest in rebuilding and changing the southern economy. As Glen said there could be another Planter class and this might be rich investors from Britain. While others might invest in railways and other infrastructure, especially if things started developing rapidly. [Say a revival of cotton and/or development of the now secured Texan & western lands. Plenty of scope for that and given its wealth and experience Britain could decide to push a trans-continental railway through, both to link the lands together and provide a quick trade link to the Pacific.
Steve
Glen
Moderator
The flag of the United States of America grew after the inclusion of Newfoundland, Vermont, and Kentucky as states in the Union. The stripes were increased from 12 to 15, as were the stars. It was this flag that flew before the American forces as they fought the French in the War of 1804.
interesting a flag that increases stripes along with stars. Though i'm not sure that they will be able to keep doing that for each new state that comes in.
Splatter123
I think they did start doing that OTL. Then when the number of stripes started to be a problem, changed to a star for each state but only 13 stripes for the initial 13 states.
Steve