Glen
Moderator
No problem. I might expand the detail in that section later so its more obvious.
Good point, so that is a possibility.
No problem. I might expand the detail in that section later so its more obvious.
Good point, so that is a possibility.
Glen
Moderator
The new nation of Mexico, while born with promise, had significant divisions at its heart. The largest of the countries born out of the former colonies of Spain, it was fractured by many different interests, but the most predominant split was between the liberals and conservatives. An unsteady peace held for the first ten years of existence, but in 1825 the stresses spilled over into outright civil war. At first it was a case of rival armies fighting for control of the country, but fairly soon as the conservatives gained control of Mexico City, the states held by the liberals began to secede from Mexico. The most serious secession efforts were in the north, including the Anglo led revolt in Texas, and in the south in the from the Yucatan down to the state of Costa Rica.
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Good, good. My predicted breakup of Mexico. I guess the question is, will Texas do what some WI TLs on this board have suggested and ask for a British protectorate, or in TTL will they request some kind of annexation to a unit which does not yet exist (or maybe to Georgia as the strongest of the colonies or something?) which could make for an interesting need for the Southern Americans to redefine their political existence together. Or do the Texans throw a curveball and either favour the USA or stay independent?
My money's on the British protectorate but I'd almost prefer any of the other options for sheer "interesting story" value
My money's on the British protectorate but I'd almost prefer any of the other options for sheer "interesting story" value
nice update I think the issue of Texas will be interesting.
having both American and British subjects in it may cause some sort of Texas war, both sides wanting to remain either British or American I suppose, and Andy Jackson is gunna do somethin I just know it
having both American and British subjects in it may cause some sort of Texas war, both sides wanting to remain either British or American I suppose, and Andy Jackson is gunna do somethin I just know it
nice update I think the issue of Texas will be interesting.
having both American and British subjects in it may cause some sort of Texas war, both sides wanting to remain either British or American I suppose, and Andy Jackson is gunna do somethin I just know it
Well if Texas goes to the US its pretty much game over as BSA is totally hemmed in by a very large US even before it faces serious problems over slavery. However, given that most of the settlers will be from the BSA I would expect either it looking for links with Britain/the BSA or remaining neutral. If the former then could see hard line pro-American factions kick up a rumpus which could have wider implications.
Steve
Glen
Moderator
Good prediction, sad for Mexico....
Hmmm....how much do you know about Andrew Jackson?
Not quite certain where you're going with this.
Well, a lot of the leadership came from the US, but on the other hand a lot of the immigrants came from the British South....including their slaves....
Well, that's certainly on the table....
My money's on the British protectorate but I'd almost prefer any of the other options for sheer "interesting story" value
Time will tell....keep reading....
Glen
Moderator
Thank you!
It always is, isn't it?
That is a definite possibility....
and Andy Jackson is gunna do somethin I just know it
Oh, you know it, baby!
Glen
Moderator
Indeed. Makes one wonder if the British would accept that....
Problems over slavery? What problems?
Indeed, indeed....
Possibly, but did you look at who the President of the United States is at this time?
Glen
Moderator
While the British Empire tried to remain neutral in the Mexican Civil War, Southerners from British Southern America were overwhelmingly in favor of the cause of Texas independence, with many young Southern men flocking to Texas' banner, and several prominent Southerners financing the Texans.
The United States of America, under the leadership of Federalist President John Quincy Adams in the beginning of his second term as president, also remained neutral initially. Jackson and several other leaders of the Texan Revolution were from America and seen as heroes by much of the general population, especially in the West. On the other hand, a substantial portion of the population, especially in the Northeast, were wary of the breaking away of Texas from the Mexicans as so many of the Texans were from the British South and potentially could bring more land to the British, but more concerning to abolitionists was the insidious return of slavery to Mexican Texas and the fear that even an independent Texas would be a slave nation.
American President John Quincy Adams
The United States of America, under the leadership of Federalist President John Quincy Adams in the beginning of his second term as president, also remained neutral initially. Jackson and several other leaders of the Texan Revolution were from America and seen as heroes by much of the general population, especially in the West. On the other hand, a substantial portion of the population, especially in the Northeast, were wary of the breaking away of Texas from the Mexicans as so many of the Texans were from the British South and potentially could bring more land to the British, but more concerning to abolitionists was the insidious return of slavery to Mexican Texas and the fear that even an independent Texas would be a slave nation.
American President John Quincy Adams
Glen
Moderator
Many call Andrew Jackson the Father of Texas.
Born in the British Carolinas in 1767, he joined the rebels there as a courier at the tender age of thirteen. He lost most of his family during the American Revolutionary War, developed a life-long hatred of the British, and immigrated to Virginian Kentucky along with other American patriots at war's end.
He became a man of some prominence in the region, and was elected to Congress on Kentucky's admission to the Union as a separate state. He resigned from Congress to join the fight in the War of 1804, and stayed in the military to fight Indians in the Northwest Territory and Missouri for a time. After amassing quite a reputation as a soldier and Indian-fighter, he considered returning to Congress when the new nation of Mexico announced large land grants for foreigners willing to bring in settlers.
Jackson brought a number of Kentuckians with him to Mexican Texas. Jackson himself had a large plantation and imported slaves from the Province of Louisiana to work the land. Soon, however, Jackson found himself back as a fighter when he was approached by Texans to lead the efforts against raiding Indians in the areas, especially the Comanche. The combination of Jackson's leadership and the weakening of the Comanche by outbreaks of small pox allowed the Texans to push the Comanche out of Mexican Texas almost entirely.
When Mexico descended into civil war in 1825, the Anglophone population in Texas declared independence, joined by some Spanish speaking Texans as well. The Texans again turned to Jackson, making him General of the Army of Texas.
Jackson launched what many historians call a brilliant campaign against the disorganized Mexican army sent to quell the Texans, throwing them back across the Nueces River. Jackson also sent a small but well organized force under Brown along the Pecos River to it's source, and then west to seize Santa Fe, capital of New Mexico. Within two years, Mexico was forced to recognize Texan independence and control of Texas and New Mexico, though they disputed the Texan claim to California.
A monument commemorating Jackson as commanding General of the Army of Texas
Born in the British Carolinas in 1767, he joined the rebels there as a courier at the tender age of thirteen. He lost most of his family during the American Revolutionary War, developed a life-long hatred of the British, and immigrated to Virginian Kentucky along with other American patriots at war's end.
He became a man of some prominence in the region, and was elected to Congress on Kentucky's admission to the Union as a separate state. He resigned from Congress to join the fight in the War of 1804, and stayed in the military to fight Indians in the Northwest Territory and Missouri for a time. After amassing quite a reputation as a soldier and Indian-fighter, he considered returning to Congress when the new nation of Mexico announced large land grants for foreigners willing to bring in settlers.
Jackson brought a number of Kentuckians with him to Mexican Texas. Jackson himself had a large plantation and imported slaves from the Province of Louisiana to work the land. Soon, however, Jackson found himself back as a fighter when he was approached by Texans to lead the efforts against raiding Indians in the areas, especially the Comanche. The combination of Jackson's leadership and the weakening of the Comanche by outbreaks of small pox allowed the Texans to push the Comanche out of Mexican Texas almost entirely.
When Mexico descended into civil war in 1825, the Anglophone population in Texas declared independence, joined by some Spanish speaking Texans as well. The Texans again turned to Jackson, making him General of the Army of Texas.
Jackson launched what many historians call a brilliant campaign against the disorganized Mexican army sent to quell the Texans, throwing them back across the Nueces River. Jackson also sent a small but well organized force under Brown along the Pecos River to it's source, and then west to seize Santa Fe, capital of New Mexico. Within two years, Mexico was forced to recognize Texan independence and control of Texas and New Mexico, though they disputed the Texan claim to California.
A monument commemorating Jackson as commanding General of the Army of Texas
Glen
Moderator
Buoyed by his success on the field of battle and his history of service in the American Congress, Andrew Jackson was chosen as first president of the Republic of Texas in 1827. The Republic almost didn't come into existence as some factions argued for annexation by America, and others argued for seeking status as a protectorate of the British Empire. However, the rank and file of the new nation were strongly British and there was a sizable slaveowner component, and neither wanted to enter the abolitionist independent United States. At the same time, others who had come from America, or left the British south to find new opportunities free of London's oversight, didn't want to become a mere pawn of Parliament. Jackson was able to unite a coalition of moderates behind his presidency as a pro-slavery, pro-independence coalition. However, his coalition was short lived and he was defeated in the Texan presidential election of 1830 by John Brown, his former subordinate.
Future President John Brown during the Texas Revolution:
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Glen
Moderator
While several flags made a brief appearance during the Texas War of Independence, the Republic itself quickly adopted a basic scheme based on Texas' claim to three Mexican states, Texas, New Mexico, and California. Both British and Americans favored a flag with blue, white, and red as basic colors, but wanted a design that would not be mistaken for either nation (as the other factions would object). Therefore the base was a blue, white, and red tricolor was selected as the base, with corresponding stars of the same color. There were two basic ways to match the stars and bars, with the earliest shown below:
However, even this design some British Southerners objected to since it could be construed as a blue field with white stars (or in this case, a single star), therefore the second pattern was eventually adopted as the official flag of Texas (shown below):
However, even this design some British Southerners objected to since it could be construed as a blue field with white stars (or in this case, a single star), therefore the second pattern was eventually adopted as the official flag of Texas (shown below):
Apologies. I admit with retrospect it was a pretty dumb comment, both in conception and in the way I wrote it, but what I meant was I was imagining some half-cocked attempt by the Texas government to go to Savannah or some influential eastern city in Southern America (see my previous debate as to which British city would be the most influential I guess) and apply for admission into the group of British states that (presumably) will eventually resolve into the Dominion of Southern America, only with the hurdle to overcome that Southern America is not yet any more than a collection of independently-governed colonies thus far and thus Texas wouldn't be able to secure any kind of annexation to the movement, or any association with the colonies short of applying for entry to the British Empire. But yeah, not a clever comment there.
I do find myself wondering, incidentally, what your plans are in this regards. Are you keeping the colonies "independent" of each other for a reason? Perhaps waiting for a suitable RL figure to unite them for coolness' sake? Or do you intend to keep them separate permanently? I'd actually find that quite cool, personally, though surely it's impractical? Or are you planning a major event which forces them to unite in a way which is both a product entirely of the circumstance (and thus a chance to do something more "radical") or more dramatic? I guess time will tell...
Hmm...Andrew Jackson. I guess this means there are two likely alternatives. An independent Texas (which surely bodes poorly for Southern America as it boxes them in good and proper) or an attempt by Jackson at pro-Americanism (USA, that is...it's hard to use the term "American" here without confusion) and ends up in a civil war with his pro-British subjects, which will probably also lead to a war between the USA and the UK. Could be cool, could be cool...Would resolve the question of whether Southern America will ever overcome the rivalry of the USA once and for all, I guess...)
For that matter, thinking of the last two paragraphs, if Texas has Andrew Jackson, are there any "great" southern figures such as very successful Civil War generals or Presidents who will grow up in this TL, ignoring butterflies, to be loyal British subjects?
Glen
Moderator
Well, your own self-critique is too harsh on your intellect, but otherwise accurate.
So far the reason is that I think this is what the British would have done up to this point in time.
Well, no. We're fast running out of RL figures to do any uniting....
I'll give you a hint that it is more of the last option than the other two.
Only if he keeps all of Texas. There are bills to pay, after all....
Pro-Americanism is definitely more Jackson's style, though he's not an abolitionist like so many in the USA.
America or Americanism in this thread will always refer to the citizens of the United States of America unless modified in some way to signify Southern or British origins.
It's a possibility if he ever pushes for US annexation or abolition of slavery in Texas.
Could be a trigger, or could play out as a proxy war style conflict, with perhaps the USA and UK picking over the corpse of Texas rather than fighting each other....
Not really. Ever read Turtledove's TL-191 books? Whether you love them or hate them, it does give an example of how winning doesn't always mean anything is really resolved.
Surprisingly few, though we might see some new people from prominent OTL families pop up from time to time....