Glen
Moderator
You are correct about the difficulty finding a European royal for the throne.
For the rest, you might be being a bit too charitable....
You are correct about the difficulty finding a European royal for the throne.
For the rest, you might be being a bit too charitable....
Glen
Moderator
I think the truth probably lies somewhere between. It was, after all, a very confusing time in Spanish politics.
Glen
Moderator
Glen, Falastur
I think under the different circumstances that the islands will be under a different flag, especially if Britain wants to maintain an interest in the NW region, either for Vancouver's settlement plans or simply the fur trade.
Quite possible.
Just had this crazy thought. British fur interests displaced from their OTL regions in Canada. What other frozen wastelands can they explore to find furs?
Steve
Yeah, that would be fun! Time will tell....
True. That's why I proposed, he might have been innocent of the corruption charges; it wouldn't be the first time a successful military leader was thrown down by their rivals. Then again the man wasn't the nicest in conducting his campaigns against the rebels. In the end I'm glad he switched sides, and helped free Mexico from Spain.
Glen
Moderator
I suppose the most relevant question here is what did he do ITTL. IIRC, they are achieving independence earlier than his change of allegiance. On the other hand, he's got to see the handwriting on the wall regarding independence....
Glen
Moderator
The 1810s saw the outbreak of revolutions throughout Spanish America. Inspired by both the American and French Revolution, yet rising up in opposition to the deposing of the Spanish King, the revolutionaries of Spanish America found themselves supported by the foe of both, the British Empire. With the British blockading the Atlantic against Spanish and French forces, the rebellions in New Spain, New Granada, and Rio de la Plata found fertile purchase. By 1815, independence was achieved in Mexico under Generalissimo Ignacio Allende and New Granada under President Antonio Nariño. The United Provinces of South America grew to encompass Chile and Peru after the successful military actions of José de San Martín, who by 1820 was proclaimed Supreme Director of the UPSA.
Generalissimo Ignacio Allende of Mexico
President Antonio Nariño of New Granada
Supreme Director José de San Martín of the United Provinces of South America
Upon achieving independence in 1815, Mexico sought to settle their border with the British Empire. During the earlier conflicts with Spain, Britain had done well in the islands, but less so on the mainland, which had decreased interest in British Honduras, especially with more ready sources of supplies from the British South to the Caribbean. Of more concern to the British was settling the border between Mexico and British Louisiana. There was a great deal of debate as to where the British lands ended. Eventually, the Mexicans agreed to recognize the Sabine River from the Gulf to its headwaters, and then a line due north to the Red River, which the border would follow west to its source, and then a line due north to the 36-30 border with America. In return for this favorable definition of the Louisiana border, the British agreed to a transfer of the protectorate of the Mosquito Coast and British Honduras to Mexico, but only with the addition of a right of transit to the Pacific along the San Juan River to Lake Nicaragua and then to the sea.
Uh oh. The Miskitos are not going to be happy at all. Privately I rather admire the Miskitos myself for their attempts to integrate themselves into a European empire and by all accounts being the most loyal colonial subjects in history, indeed the most strident supporters of imperialism, but the British protectorate never seems to survive any TL on this board. I kind of had hopes considering how stupid a Monroe Doctrine would be in TTL, but it seems not. Oh well, c'est la vie, que sera sera and all that. It's not a major issue.
I sense an ethnic genocide on the horizon. The Miskitos were pretty violent to their neighbours, and only British protection prevented them from being attacked brutally in reprisal campaigns by national armies on numerous occasions.
Glen
Moderator
He looked into it, but much as Iturbide discovered, there weren't any takers. Therefore he has reluctantly stepped forward as the only one who could hold together Peru, Chile, and the rest of the UPSA (did I mention it was different from ours?)
Glen
Moderator
And here's the map as it would look in 1804:
Above map corrected for the states.
Map circa 1810:
How are the relations along the Mississippi and in New Orleans with the Ohio and Kentucky Flatboat men? how do the British deal with men half crocodile and half tornado? Impressment?
Glen
Moderator
Initially, impressment is in fact one of the ways.
After 1804, however, they just let the West Floridian and Louisianan Cajuns wallop them.
Glen
Moderator
The Southern Live Oak
The story of the Southern Live Oak (Quercus virginiana) and the early days of the navies of the United States and Southern America are intertwined. The Southern Live Oak is one of the hardest of hardwoods, which made it hard to work with, but very strong. This made it an attractive material for the construction of warships. In the United States, this tree only grew in Southeastern Virginia, but it was found throughout British Southern America.
The US navy had essentially been disbanded after the American Revolutionary War. During the Quasi-War with France, the need to reconstitute a blue-water navy was recognized, and Congress authorized the construction of six frigates.
These ships used live oak from Virginia in their hull construction because of that reputation for strength. While there was a lull in hostilities with Revolutionary France with the ascension of Napoleon Boneparte, this reversed during the War of 1804. American frigates proved themselves a tough opponent, in part attributed to the Southern Live Oak lumber. Stories of cannonballs bouncing off American frigates abounded.
USS Constitution at Sea
The British were impressed with the performance of Southern Live Oak as a shipbuilding material, so much so that it became an important cash crop in the South. The British even commissioned some smaller naval vessels to be built in the Southern Colonies during the Napoleonic Wars and after to speed providing naval vessels in the Caribbean.
Glen
Moderator
The Southern Live Oak
The story of the Southern Live Oak (Quercus virginiana) and the early days of the navies of the United States and Southern America are intertwined. The Southern Live Oak is one of the hardest of hardwoods, which made it hard to work with, but very strong. This made it an attractive material for the construction of warships. In the United States, this tree only grew in Southeastern Virginia, but it was found throughout British Southern America.
The US navy had essentially been disbanded after the American Revolutionary War. During the Quasi-War with France, the need to reconstitute a blue-water navy was recognized, and Congress authorized the construction of six frigates.
These ships used live oak from Virginia in their hull construction because of that reputation for strength. While there was a lull in hostilities with Revolutionary France with the ascension of Napoleon Boneparte, this reversed during the War of 1804. American frigates proved themselves a tough opponent, in part attributed to the Southern Live Oak lumber. Stories of cannonballs bouncing off American frigates abounded.
USS Constitution at Sea
The British were impressed with the performance of Southern Live Oak as a shipbuilding material, so much so that it became an important cash crop in the South. The British even commissioned some smaller naval vessels to be built in the Southern Colonies during the Napoleonic Wars and after to speed providing naval vessels in the Caribbean.
The Jefferson administration was less interested in maintaining the naval build up started by the Federalists, but was also against the payments to the Barbary Pirates to protect American merchant shipping in the Mediterranean.
When President Jefferson discontinued the payments in 1805, the Barbary states essentially declared open season on US shipping. Jefferson had no choice but to continue the naval program of his predecessor and to use the navy in 1806 against the Barbary pirates. The Navy sent William Bainbridge and Stephen Decatur with a squadron to the Barbary Coast to force the Deys to cease pillaging American shipping.
Between the navy and marine forces sent, America acquitted herself well in her first foray in foreign lands.
