As far as I can tell, it seems that the proposed establishment of an RSHA-controlled political entity in the area was an idea being thrown around in the early stages (as can be seen from its inclusion of Karelia, which was exclusively promised to Finland by Hitler in 1941) for the post-war planning, but I do not know if the idea was ever abandoned entirely. I haven’t seen it mentioned in any of the books I myself have read or own, but there are at least two maps that clearly display it however (both shown below).
Since the territorial control of the region was supposed to be with the RSHA, I suppose the idea most likely came from either Heydrich, Himmler, or even Mueller. It was Himmler and the SS who drew up the colonization plans for Eastern Europe in Generalplan Ost, after all.Curious! I'd love to know where it came from originally. Ah well...
"Ferry city"? "Bear city"? Nice…(Tangential to your "They wouldn't use the name Russia" - to which I agree - a while ago I beat my brain to a pulp trying to come up with suitably Germanic names for the various divisions of RK Moskau and Ukraine, for that far-off ASB day when they'd change from RK districts to Reichsgaue. After the 10th or so clumsy translation based on Wikipedia articles, I gave up, but someone more familiar with Russian & Ukrainian and German should have a go at it one day, IMO.
Here's the list, for everyone to point and laugh at:
Weißmeer/Arkhangelsk oblast (Erzengelstadt/Arkhangelsk)
Westwald/Komi Republic (Syssolaburg/Syktyvkar)
Tannen/Vologda oblast (Greiserstadt/Vologda)
Kostroma/Ivanovo, Kostroma and Yaroslavl oblasts (Romberg/Yaroslavl)
Waldaihöhen/Tver oblast (Kniwastadt/Tver)
Bären/Kaluga and Moscow oblasts (Bärenstadt/Moscow)
Königlich/Vladimir and Ryazan oblasts (Königlichstadt/Vladimir)
Nordsteppe/Lipetsk, Oryol and Tula oblasts (Neu-Kulm/Tula)
Schwarzerde/Kursk, Belgorod and Voronzeh oblasts (Balckstadt/Voronezh)
Zna/Tambov Oblast (Znaburg/Tambov)
Or/Baskhortosan republic and Orenburg oblast (Orenburg)
Bergwald/Perm krai (Klemmburg/Perm)
Siwa/Kirov oblast and Udmurtia (Hilinburg/Kirov)
Ostwolga/Chuvashia, Mari El and Tatarstan (Tschuwaschenburg/Cheboksary)
Mordrovia and Nizhny Novgorod oblast (Jochmannstadt/Nizhny Novgorod)
Mittelsteppe/Penza, Samara, Saratov and Ulyanovsk oblasts (Fehrstadt/Ulyanovsk) )
Vandalenburg, Pflugstadt, Himmlerstadt, Katharinenburg (after the German czarina, of course)... Some like Hegewald, Halbstadt are from the other map you posted, and some are the original Russian names germanized (Röwne, Tjernigau, Karkau, Saratau). I'm just asking because it doesn't look very consistent.
Really? Could you provide some references to them, so I can correct that mistake?One thing I've not seen on axis victory maps is a Greater Finland minus the Kola peninsula, which OTL Hitler did make statements for, wanting the peninsula to be under German government due to the resources there.
No, I’d say Denmark is yet another, very different situation. Because of their early surrender and a number of other reasons the Danes were mainly allowed to govern themselves by the Germans (a “model protectorate” as the Nazis called it). The Reich was represented by a "reichbevoellmachtiger" in Denmark, basically a diplomatic envoy instructed to coordinate the occupation policies with the local Danish authorities. The whole situation in general is annoying complex, as people might have noted by now. The different forms of control installed in the countries conquered by the Germans or made subservient/allied to the them varied wildly, and were often rather vaguely defined.Well, in the case of Britain being a Reichskommissariat and a kingdom, wouldn't that situation be analogous to situation in Denmark where the monarchy wasn't abolished? Of course in this case it would be a puppet monarchy.
Most of them only show Ostland itself, but are you referring to the last one, which shows Ukraine in its Soviet- and modern-era borders? I think they were used simply for statistical, rather than administrative purposes.Generally a good map. I think the borders of the future districts in Ukraine might be slightly different - look back on that Ostland atlas reference I gave to see what I mean.
Basically, yeah. Any map that can be made is merely an approximation in the end, some closer than others. It all depends on how you define terms such as “victory” (hell, even "Nazi" itself), how total it was, how and under what circumstances this “victory” was achieved, and what persons and factions would be in power after the resolution of conflict. In fact, about the only way to get an absolutely correct map is if you were to actually change history and visit this grand Nazi future that so many AH writers are so fascinated by. I’ve therefore tried to adhere as closely as possible to the post-war plans for the “New Order”. Whether these were actually realistically possible is another debate altogether, I think.The thing with Nazi victory maps is that technically no one map is going to be the real deal. Any number of them could be as it would depend on the course of events (e.g. peace treaty between Germany and Britain in 1940 would lead to no Reichskommissariat established in the UK). The one you've done Morgan would probably be a depiction of a victory in which Hitler either died early after victory against the Allies or was sidelined, thus leaving the way clear for the groups in the Nazi government who didn't think too highly of Italy to have their way with that country. As long as Hitler was in control and the Allies didn't land in Italy I think it is likely that Italy would have retained her empire and Germany wouldn't have annexed south Tyrol and the Istria areas.
I think you made a mistake in what you just described there (or maybe I'm just imaging it differently). The Rhine actually defines the Swiss-German border in most places. Did you mean the language areas instead?Then there were also plans to partition Switzerland (along the Rhine and from there in a straight-ish line to the border with France I think).
There were only two countries that the Nazis tolerated giving any territorial promises to about the conquered Soviet territories (that was their Lebensraum after all, so Hitler didn't feel like sharing it with anyone): Romania and Finland. Both had major grievances with the Soviets after being forced to give up part of their own countries (and the Romanians needed to be compensated for the loss of North Transylvania to Hungary in the Second Vienna Award), and would therefore be anxious to side with the Germans. The Finns were extremely vital to the German war effort because of their contribution to the conflict with the Soviet Union, so the Germans generally did whatever they could to keep them in the fight. I've heard the promises referred to by someone as including Karelia, the Kola peninsula, Murmansk, some land east of Lake Onega and "even more" (whatever that means). But as Frige just stated, the Germans seem to have wanted the Kola peninsula for themselves, so I'm waiting for confirmation on that.With Karelia going to Finland, did that include Murmansk and the Kola Peninsula? Technically Karelia doesn't include either at least in the modern sense.
No, that was apparently just supposed to be taken from France as even further revenge after the earlier cession of the French Netherlands and Alsace-Lorraine. “The borders with France will be those of the Holy Roman Empire.” I believe Hitler’s exact words were. The SS State of Burgundy was a different idea altogether, thought up entirely by Himmler (and later approved by his master, at least officially). The borders are those of the old Frankish kingdom of Burgundy, by the way.And where did you find the borders for the SS-state in Burgundy? I thought that what you have as Reichskommissariat/Reichsland Lothringen was what Hitler and his bunch intended as the SS Burgundy (which would somewhat fit in loosely with the area occupied by the County of Burgundy and Duchy of Burgundy from the 800s to the 1400-1600s and more generally the area controlled by the House of Burgundy at some point during that time period).
That would seem to be the correct conclusion. It was apparently in 1941 when Hitler definitively decided that the GG was to become “as German as the Rhineland” and all references to the Poles as a people and a nation were subsequently dropped.All very true. The references that include the name "Russland" were probably very early references as intially the General Government was called "the General Government for the occupied Polish territories" (in 1939) but then this was just officially shortened to "the General Government" (in 1940 or 1941 I think) as all references to "Poland" and "Polish" were removed.
"Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."The map itself is good, but I can't help but notice "Rick's Cafe" dropped in French Morocco. Is there some reference to that? ATL Casablanca?
The Germans already have a practically unlimited supply of oil flowing from the Caspian Sea, so there isn't really any need. Vassalizing Saudi Arabia would have angered the Americans too much (as both of these events combined gives Germany about 90% of the world's oil supplies). Still, the British are tasked to "keep the peace" in the Middle East and other parts of Asia and Africa.What's the status of the Middle East and Turkey on your map? Wouldn't they have become German client states or something so the Reich could control the oil reserves in the Middle East?
You might have heard that entity jokingly referred to here occasionally as "the inevitable SS-State of Burgundy" (underline the "inevitable").Also I'm intrigued by the Staat-Burgund. What is that? And is that a little SS I see on it ?
"Ferry city"? "Bear city"? Nice…
I actually think the Netherlands would probably have been renamed as well, probably after the ancient Batavian tribe that lived there. So:
Netherlands/Nederland/Niederlande = Batavenland
Amsterdam = Bataverien
There was also a proposition that Moscow should be burned down to the ground sometime in the future, or even turned into a lake. What in the hell were they supposed to administer the RK Moskau from then? I suppose they could have just stamped a new city out of the ground (what with the abundance of ample slave labour), but it is pretty hard to govern something from a pile of rubble.
Officially, yeah. The SS resorted to just overruling the French authorities in all matters of state, so Paris eventually gave up on trying to govern the region themselves, making it independant in practice if not on paper.That SS Burgundy thing is fascinating. It really is inevitable
However I don't understand how it's marked on the map. Is it just an autonomous part of France? I would have thought it would be fully independent (or part of the German alliance, rather).
You would probably have to ask Himmler that, not me.What would the SS ...do in Burgundy, though? That they couldn't do anywhere else, anyways.
"Sorry, but Himmler is currently unavailable. Please leave a message after the FBI wiretaps your phone."You would probably have to ask Himmler that, not me.
With the abundance of power the SS already had OTL (leading to them being referred to by some as a “state within a state”) I’d say he just wanted to officially be given his own country to control as he saw fit.
No, I’d say Denmark is yet another, very different situation. Because of their early surrender and a number of other reasons the Danes were mainly allowed to govern themselves by the Germans (a “model protectorate” as the Nazis called it). The Reich was represented by a "reichbevoellmachtiger" in Denmark, basically a diplomatic envoy instructed to coordinate the occupation policies with the local Danish authorities. The whole situation in general is annoying complex, as people might have noted by now. The different forms of control installed in the countries conquered by the Germans or made subservient/allied to the them varied wildly, and were often rather vaguely defined.
Most of them only show Ostland itself, but are you referring to the last one, which shows Ukraine in its Soviet- and modern-era borders? I think they were used simply for statistical, rather than administrative purposes.
If you were wondering by the way, I got the district/generalkommissariat borders from this map displayed in a book of mine, which I think was drawn by Rosenberg.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1551/ccf2101201000000.jpg
I think you made a mistake in what you just described there (or maybe I'm just imaging it differently). The Rhine actually defines the Swiss-German border in most places. Did you mean the language areas instead?
No, that was apparently just supposed to be taken from France as even further revenge after the earlier cession of the French Netherlands and Alsace-Lorraine. “The borders with France will be those of the Holy Roman Empire.” I believe Hitler’s exact words were. The SS State of Burgundy was a different idea altogether, thought up entirely by Himmler (and later approved by his master, at least officially). The borders are those of the old Frankish kingdom of Burgundy, by the way.
One thing you have to love about the Nazis is their complete lack of imagination in renaming cities and regions. The number of times the terms “–stadt” (city) “–burg” (castle) and “–land” (exactly what it says on the tin) pop up is just ridiculous (although to be fair, they are just normal and widespread terms used in German-speaking countries).
The general trend used for renaming things by the Nazis were apparently either:
- after some (historically) notable German (or otherwise “Aryan”) person or name;
- an ancient Germanic tribe, whether real or imagined (Goths, Vandals, Gorals)
- or some local geographical feature (mountains, rivers, forests, etc.)
I actually think the Netherlands would probably have been renamed as well, probably after the ancient Batavian tribe that lived there. So:
Netherlands/Nederland/Niederlande = Batavenland
Amsterdam = Bataverien
Issel.Ijssel-Ems (or whatever the German would be for "Ijssel" - maybe "Aasel"? "Aasal"?)
Issel.
From the latin Isala.